How Many Interactions Does It Really Take to Make a Sale?!

Today on the podcast, we're going to look at how many touch points do you need? How many touch points do you require to close a deal? Another way of saying that is this. When you're having a set of conversations, a set of interactions with a potential customer, how many times do you need to touch up with that person? Do you need to talk 5 * 6 * 12 times? How many meetings do you need to have 23512? So those are the kind of issues that we're going to be discussing today.

Now, the reason why we're going to be talking about this is because you guys who've been listening to the Pod House for the last week are aware that my partners and I are coming up with a series of trainings that will start from the 12th of December 2020, sixth and run until the 23rd of December. Now it's going to be a two week intensive 5 days, of course, Monday to Friday and then Monday to Friday you'll have weekends off.

So don't worry, it's not going to be this marathon thing. And we're going to talk about lots of issues around how you close the deal using the phone. I'm currently in conversations with someone who is going to be a participant in the training and his name is Darnley. And, you know, Darnley, as in DARNLEY about when he uses, you know, surname to protect his identity. So Downley. And of course, I told him that he has the record for the most interesting Nigerian name that I've come across to date because I've heard of all kinds of names, but I've never heard of it Downley before.

And then he said he's used to it. You know, growing up in Abuja, eventually in Port Harcourt, you know, everybody's always tripped by his name. So yes, if you've heard that name before and you've wondered, do Nigerians bear this name? Yeah they do and I'm in touch with one of them now. Darley is a voice over artist and he runs his own agency. What they do is they do audiobook production and he also has a background in broadcast.

His business has been going on for about 8 years and what they do is they produce audiobooks for Nigerian authors. They take your text, they take your written words and then they transform it into audio so that you can be listed on several audio book platforms and you can find other ways of making revenue by selling your books, you know, maybe as audio books on Amazon or whatever. So that is what Dan Lee does and he is going to be a part of the cohort next year, 12th of January 2026.

So you can see the classroom is already filling up with people who are doing big things, people who are doing interesting things and people who are doing exciting things. So if all you've been doing is, you know, since you graduated, you've been doing your lawyer work, you've been doing your wedding photography work. And as far as you're concerned, you know, Nigeria is just, you know, trade as that's all trading a hand work.

You like to step into the room and be with people who are doing other kinds of things that you haven't heard before and making money in different kinds of ways. Then this will be the perfect opportunity for you. Come the 12th of January, 2026, we'll be talking about all kinds of things. Now, one of the things that we're going to be talking about, because it has really come up in the preliminary discussions I've been having with Donnelly.

Oh, and by the way, like I've been saying, and some of you might not believe me or might not take me seriously, I actually want to talk to all of you. I want to talk to all of you before we begin the class because I love money, but I'm not a fraud. Before I collect your money, I want to know who you are. I want to know what your business is. I want to know what your business goals are. I want to know what problems you've been facing.

I want to know what obstacles you've been facing because I want to be sure that this training is going to be able to help you. And I will going to be able to come up with concrete solutions for every single person in that classroom. So this thing is only going to work if I get to know you guys ahead of time. So of course. Yeah. Darling, you know, we've chatted a few times, exchanged some audio, some voice notes, and then eventually, you know, we had a phone call as we've been talking about a couple of things.

And Darling brought up one thing that we're actually going to talk about during the training. He was talking about how in their own typical sales cycle, one way that they decide, you know what, I know we'll pursue this person again. Like there's no room here. One of the ways that I've been looking at that was he came across a rule somewhere about seven touch points. And so for him, seven touch points once you try to tackle somebody 12345 by the time you enter 7 no show you just flashy.

And it's something he has always wondered, is it too soon? Did I stop too soon? Was there room? Was there a way to make progress? Could this have been a deal? So he was wondering, as in some of the things that came up in our pre preliminary conversation, just getting to know each other before the class. And luckily, this is one of the questions that we're going to answer when we start the training next year on the 12th of January 2026.

Now, if you're listening to this podcast episode in, I don't know, 2028 or whatever, don't worry. This program is going to have several editions. So all you have to do is just reach out to me and we'll see how we can get you to be a part of the current edition of the program. Oh, by the way, if this is your first time listening to the podcast, my name is Tavishima Ayede. I'm your host. I'm a former lawyer turned business consultant.

And over here on the podcast, these are the kinds of questions that I'd like to answer almost every other day. Shah, you won't go a whole week without not hearing anything from me when we talk about these sorts of things. How do you find customers? How do you close the deal? How many conversations should you be having? Should you be having physical meetings? Should you be making phone calls? Should you be driving to your house, to their house?

Should you invite them over to your studio? Should you attend trade fairs? How do you close the deal? If you're talking with somebody that the person is based in Canada and you're in Afghanistan? These are the kinds of things that we talk about over here on the show. So if you'd love to connect with me, then call, send me a text message or send me a WhatsApp message on 08064662140. And if you love these sorts of issues, then stay tuned in.

Subscribe to the podcast on Spotify, on YouTube, on Apple or any player of your choice. Now back to what I was saying, my guy, darling. Now he's wondering how many touch points to close a deal they've been doing. 7 is 7. OK. Oh, I forgot, apologies. I'm currently in the villa right now because, you know, recording this around December. So it's a full house. My kids are here, wifey is here, Mumsy is here, my cousins are here, the kids are here,

neighborhood chickens are here. So they're going to hear noise coming in through the background. So no Vex, but also don't worry because the matter, the noise that you're in the background. You know that when you're chilling with your boy on this podcast, you're always going to get good value. So don't worry about the noise. It's not even a problem. Anyway, 7 minutes don't pass. Let's get straight into it. Now, how many touch points you require to close the deal And how do you know when you have done too much or you've not done enough?

Before we answer this question, I want to define a few things here just to make sure we're on the same page. Now touch points just means any interaction you have with a potential customer. So back to the example that I always give you on the podcast, not because it's the best, but because it's, you know, it's easy to understand because after law I ventured into events, wedding photography and video. So that is easy to understand.

Now, Abby, so the touch points are very simple. I would show up at a business fair. We used to call our own wedding Expo. I show up at the wedding Expo, I'll meet somebody on the floor. That's touch one. I bring somebody back to the booth. Extended conversation. That's torch two. Well, me, I like to look at it as two touches. Some people say no, done all. Now one touch because it's in the same venue. OK, no problem. Let's say now one touch because he's in the venue.

You meet them on the floor, you bring them to the booth, one touch. Then after the show is over, you call them up to say, hey, establishment, Of course, don't remember where I was. I said that black guy. Now that been way boy, they say oh, Mr. TVI don't know. And then, you know, we start talking blah, blah, blah. Was nice catching up. Remember we said we're going to see Wednesday next week. Are you still go? Oh no, Wednesday I'm not available.

And let's make it Friday, Friday at 5:00 PM. OK, sure. You come to the studio? Oh, no, I can't come and no problem. I can meet you at work. When is your lunch break? Lunch break is 2:00 PM. OK, no problem. I'll see you at Zenith Bank. Which of the Zenith Bank? We say to Abby which branch? OK, confirmed. End the call. Brap that interaction. That is now touch 2. Hope you guys are like you're with me. Hope we're we're working here.

So that's torch 2. Torch one was bridal Expo wedding fair. Torch 2 was called to confirm the appointment. Then torch 3 is, I'll send a reminder the day before because you know, people forget. So that's torch three. Torch 4 is now ashore by the Babe's office and, you know, went into the banking hall. Maybe we sit somewhere inside the customer service area. And then we talk a bit about our plans for the wedding. That is Torch 4:00.

And then I have enough information now to come up with a couple of proposals, so I'll tell her, OK, You know what, based on what we've spoken about, I think I can now meet you on Cooley. Maybe let's meet next weekend. Next weekend we'll now go over specific plans about how we'll do photography coverage and video coverage for you. She will say, of course, that sounds cool. Then we end the meeting and then we go, we finished Torch 4.

Torch 5 will now be I sent her a message again saying, hey, what's up? Remember Yumi Kohli was supposed to see so, so, so, so she we can meet City Plaza. She will say it's cool, no problem. That is now torch what 5, Assuming I'm counting correctly. Then eventually we have the mini meeting app, City Plaza, where I showed them a couple of proposals and I get them to select which one it is that they think they like. And then now we are touch six.

I'll be touch 7. Now, even if you're just listening to this podcast for the very first time, I trust that you are already getting the concept that we're hitting out here, hinting out here when we talk about the touches, the touch points that are required to close a deal. Very few deals are closed in one touch. As per this is the first time I'm meeting you. This is the first time we're shaking hand. This is the first time we're talking.

Then next you're transferring millions of naira to me. Very few deals are closed that way. Most deals require multiple touch points, multiple interactions with your potential customer, customer before you close the deal. So this is what we mean when we say a touch point. Now someone like Darley who is in the audio production business, clearly you can see that his own business too will require multiple touch points. You will talk, you will arrange meeting, you will look at scripts, you will look at the book, you do correction, you do back and forth, you will negotiate, you will price, you will transfer the deposit.

You can see as in multiple touch points. So the concern for Dan Lee and the concern for some of you now is how many is enough? I've been talking to this guy over the last four weeks. In the four weeks we have had 12 touch points. Is it enough to try and close the deal or should I say, oh, this guy no, they do. I beg, let me free them. Let me go and look for somebody else to talk to. This guy is not going to buy. We've had 12 touch points.

The guy no, they shake body. This guy is not buying. So those are the questions that we're looking at. Now let's look at, let's try and define something else. close the deal. For most of you listening to this podcast, when you hear close the deal, what you think of is you have collected your deposit, you've collected your 50%, your 80%. Those of you who collect 20%, honestly speaking where Niger, I really, really disagree.

I mean, in the SME space, I really don't know why you're collecting 20% deposit. I really don't know, honestly. Like save yourself from headache. If you're going to be collecting deposits, please at least collect 50%, please, I beg you. Anyway, it depends on the business, it depends on the product, it depends on the service, you know. So, but sure, those of you that collect 20%, it's just to save yourself the headache.

Because if you collect 20% from somebody to start the job, think of the number of phone calls you're going to be doing to now be collecting 80%. May not just stress make your life easy. So for a lot of you, when you hear close the deal, what you guys think of is deposit. As in I have collected the money, I'm holding the cash in my hand, they have done the transfer, I have seen the ping game or I have collected the full amount.

That's what all all of you think of when you hear close the deal. But from what I've explained now about touch points and the multiple interactions, you can see that closing the deal actually happens in stages. Small, small, small, small, small. So back to the wedding photographer example, I meet them on the floor. When I say on the floor, how will I put it? Now, when you go for business Expo, like for those of you who sell tractors and things like that, when you attend Lagos International Trade Fair or Abuja International Trade Fair,

there's the general exhibition floor where people just, they mix and everybody just they move, you know. So that's all we mean when we say on the floor. Then there are people that have their booth at the edges of the event. So where was I? How did I get here? So multiple interactions. You actually close the deal in small steps. When you meet somebody on the floor, you actually have to get them to come to the booth. That is a small way of closing the deal.

When you get to the booth, you actually need to get them to be comfortable to talk about their business. That's also another small close. When they talk about their business, you actually have to, you have to collect their contact details. That's also another small close. When the trade fair close, you call them up, you gas to get them to agree for a meeting. That's also another small close. So even though there's a big close at the end when you collect, deposit, collect,

transfer, collect the full amount, you're still closing the business in small steps along the way. Excuse me. Now that is what we call in this profession, those of us who are sales or marketing, this is what we call conversions. Conversion is when you get the person to take one small step. The principle is this, if you agree, if you get somebody to agree in principle to smaller steps, small, small, small, small, small, eventually you get to to be close.

It's the same thing in in business relationships and also in romantic relationships too. It is very rare that you meet somebody today and you just propose to her and she will agree to marry you. The normal course of things is, you know, you'll get her to laugh small 1st and you'll give me your name. That's a small victory. The next step is you try and collect phone number. She didn't give you a phone number today. Maybe next year she gives you phone number, that's a small victory.

Then of course, first date, you know, she will say I'm busy a couple of times. Eventually you guys go to the cinema. OK, small victory. So it's like that small, small victory. And then one day you'll be in the same position where I am, where you're telling people that, oh, I've been married now for over 15 years and these are my children. So small, small steps. It's the same thing in business relationships as in personal relationships as well.

So for those of you young men who are listening to this thing now, people feel like you got game and you want to close the deal that very first day, like, relax, take it easy. Maybe you're that smooth, no problem. But for the average guy, look, don't overdo. The victory is in small, small steps. All those people, they're looking at 20 years marriage, 30 years marriage, seven children, you know, small, small steps you will get there.

Don't worry, don't rush. All right, so those are conversions. Now, these are the three main concepts. What you guys to pay attention to touch points. Touch points just means any interactions you have with someone close the deal. That means collect the full bar, the full money. That's where I is. You want to collect that 4 million, correct? That's close. But then along the way, you will have conversions. Small, small, small steps,

small, small agreements. The small, small agreements will lead you to be close. Always remember, every time you listen to this podcast or every time you listen to another person's podcast that is on sales or marketing, they might not break it down to you the way that I've broken down, but trust me, this principle applies so long as his business and we're talking about these principles, they apply. So now let's move straight into the question.

Since we've already done 18 minutes, is there a fixed number of steps that is required? Because remember down Lee, he had somewhere that seven touch points. So is there a fixed number now? OK, 7, the guy know the shake body, this guy won't buy. OK, 12, the baby know the pick call. That means we're not making progress. Or maybe you make 102 touches and you know you're not. You don't feel as if you're making progress. Is there a fixed number?

Is HE1O2? Is he 7? Is it 1000? How do we know when we've done enough? How do we know when to give up? So let me answer this question now. Is there a fixed number of steps required? The answer is no, there is no fixed number of steps required. And so I told Dan Lee even before the training, I told him for free. I told him, forget all these people who tell you fixed number in America. This is just about, you know, 16 to 30 something touch points required to close a deal.

You know, when people talk like that, they're talking, you know, it's more of a guideline, general guideline. And they're trying to give you a realistic expectation just so that you don't call somebody four times, they don't answer, and then you give up. So having these things as averages is not a bad idea. But whenever somebody is telling you a fixed number of touch points, they usually are talking about certain kinds of contexts because the number of steps required depends on the context.

What kind of product are you selling? What is the price of the product that you're selling? Is your product a simple one or is it a complex one? What are the number of parties that are involved in buying your product or service? Is relationship building essential in buying your product for your service? These are the kinds of things that you have to ask yourself that will determine the number of steps that be required.

Now think about it. I've given an example with me back in the wedding photography days and with Darnley in his audio book production business. How cheap or how expensive is it? That will determine how many times you touch up because if something is a commodity. Commodities are low torch. When you go to the market and you want to buy a Gucci, it is low torch. Not too much grammar, of course, maybe some small talk, tenable economy, blah blah blah.

She will tell you 5000 naira per cup. You price it, eventually you pay for it. But Shah, you know there and there is a commodity. One torch, one time. If it's not expensive, you'll be low torch. If you think, don't the price. If it's, you know, if it's an expensive something, something, something, expect that there will be multiple touches. So a go see one touch. On the other hand, if you want, let's say, let me stick to a go see if on the other hand, you want to buy a trailer load of a go see multiple touches because you can't just go and drop millions of naira to buy a trailer load of a Gucci from someone unless you know one or two things.

So when there's One Cup of a Gucci, one touch, if you're a trader in a Gucci and you want to buy a trailer load of a Gucci in an Ambra so that you can move it to Abuja and sell in the general market, There will be multiple touches that will be involved. Or you guys can see how it works according to price, which is the reason why when you hear somebody on LinkedIn, an American person saying, you know, average of 32 touches,

just it's not as if it's wrong. But you know, it depends on their own context. What are they talking about? Are they talking about construction? Are they talking about insurance? What are they talking about? So always hear it with that backdrop in mind. That's the reason why I say there's no fixed number. Don't hold yourself to any fixed number. But even if you hear any fixed number, it is contextual and it's just your Roth guide.

That is what clarified this confusion with Americans saying this is the number of touch points, British people saying there's the number of touch points, Australian people saying there's the number of touch points, and Nigerians saying these are the number of touch points because it's all contextual. Then your product, how simple or how complex is it? 1 cup of Agusi is a very simple something now is it not? I see the Agusi is either good or it's not.

It's either dry or it's not. It is either white or it has started turning black. I will pay one time if I'm buying a trailer load of a goose. On the other hand, because I ought to be a middleman distributing to different markets in Abuja, it's a little bit complex now because there are different moving parts to consider. I have to consider the credibility of the person who is selling me this thing. I have to consider the integrity of transportation along the value chain.

Will they live on time? Will they practice thing on time, Will they store it on time, Will they deliver on time? When we say complexity, we just mean the number of moving parts that we have to consider. And in this case now because I'm buying a trailer load of a Gucci so I can distribute in the major markets in Abuja, you can see that the number of things I have to consider, the number of moving parts to consider is rising and rising and rising is becoming more complex because of that.

And so therefore I will need multiple touch points so I can verify all these things. And you say you can produce the Gucci, Where's your farm? Let me see it. And this is the one that you produced. OK, How many, how many kilogram are we packaging it? Is it 55 kilogram, 1010 kilogram, 50 kilogram. Let me see them. Which kind of bag is it back with Super sack? Is it this? Is it that? Which kind of tipper are you using? The tipper is you open back or you cover it with tampoline?

Then delivery from a number to Abuja. How many days delivery are you coming to my warehouse? I'll be like, you can see that there are a number of things to consider. It is now becoming complex, plenty of moving parts. And because of this level of complexity, more touch points are going to be required because there's a lot that I need to verify. I can't just carry millions and then just give somebody like that. No. So price, if it's cheap, one touch point.

It was expensive. Multiple touch points for those of you who have children. Daddy, buy me ice cream. Which one? This one. OK, How much is it? 400 naira. You just pay that. Buy me a skateboard. We skateboard that one. You ask the person how much it is. Oh, we have different ranges of skateboards. This particular one costs 400,000 naira. Oh, yes, Sir. And we have this line, that line, that line. You know what? Let me have your phone number.

I'll give you a call. I'll call you later. You see, in that case, multiple touch points are required. The thing is cheap. You pay one time, they tell you that skateboard is 400 K, you say, and then multiple touch points required. You go and you talk with wifey, you call the person back, you go to the store, you look at a couple, maybe your son drives out one or two. Then you go and save them before you come back. Multiple touch points required.

Complexity, How many moving parts are involved? The more parts, the more things you need to consider. There will be more touch points then number of parties. Normal party just means number of people involved in the transaction. That also determines the number of touches. So for wedding photography, that one was relatively straightforward. I'm talking with the bride, I'm talking with the groom. I'm good when it comes to payment.

Our Nasta Harrison mumsy and popsy in, you know, worst case scenario, but you can see that for wedding photography, worst case scenario, I'm only talking to four people. Worst case 4. There are some businesses on the other hand, that normal, normal, you have to be talking to like 12-13 people. For those of you who want to, you know, enter into the fintech space. I mean, think about it, you're trying to sell software to Zenith Bank.

You can't just talk to the MDI think you're done? You talk to the MD? Yes, the MD will have to deliberate with the board. If you know one or two people in the board, it might help. So one moment. OK, I'm sorry about that. So like I said earlier, you know kids around and so my younger son just needed me for something. So like I was saying, now those of you who are selling to Zenith Bank, there's not enough that you know the MD.

So if you know the MD, you have the phone number for one or two people on the board, you'll be good. If you have the phone number for somebody in the tech department, it'll be good. Would be nice if you also know somebody in procurement, would also be nice if you know someone who is one of the IT officers or something like that, you know, because the IT officers would be important when it comes to evaluating your software.

Can it help them work in the business? Sorry, one moment. OK, sorry Mona Novak's. I already told you guys at the beginning that you know I'm in the villa, so interruptions galore. Well, anyway, let's continue. I think I was talking about number of parties. Yes, number of parties. So I was talking about how for me by as a wedding photographer, number of parties worst case scenario for. But for those of you who are trying to sell business to business or enterprise software or payment solutions or something.

I think I already counted like 6 or 7 people that you should be touching base with. It might even be high as 10 or maybe even 15 just to close one deal. Now the point I'm trying to make is this, the more parties that you have to talk to, obviously the more touch points you have. So in the beginning is the bride I'm talking to. So touch point, touch point, touch point. Eventually I want to sit down with her and her Bobo when humble boy is involved.

I'm doing 2 two touch points as I'm calling her. I'm calling him because I need both of them on the same page or else I'm not collecting this money if the bride likes me, but the groom like somebody else, Wahala. If they both like me and I think my price is reasonable, but their parents think that my price is expensive Wahana. So you see, I go to touch points like that, call the bride, call the go call mumsy. OK, It was not usual that I will call popsy, but JA, you see multiple touch points now.

So I would have followed them, Yan, because it's four parties now. If I'm selling complex financial products now and it's 1520 people that I'm supposed to keep in touch with, can you see that you can't just say O32 touch points required? If there are twenty parties involved, then which one is 32 touch points? 32 touch points? You have barely called everybody 11 time, so there's no fixed number. Your situation will be different from my own.

Then relationship building, how much relationship building is required? You know, it also depends on the context and all you know. But there's some situations where no relationship building required. So back to the Agusi example 1 cup of Agusi, no relationship building required. I get in, but I'm giving the Agusi. I buy, I leave. But if I want to buy a truckload of a Gucci so I can distribute to small, small markets in Abuja or in Lagos, relationship building now is required because relationship building is my protection.

It's not as if I like these people. It's just that if any our gas and I need to go and get military people, I need to be able to take military and go straight to somebody's house and say this is where this burger lives. I've given this guy millions, lock this girl up and his whole family. So relationship building is also a way of mitigating risk, at least in this part of the world. So it is required. If you go home crying, I tell your wife that my dear, they're made off with 20 million naira should be asking you a question.

Who is this person? Where are they, what do they live, what do they do? By the time your wife grew, you will know that what you did was stupid. They didn't build relationship. You want to go and drop money now. The extent of the relationship that needs to be built will also determine the number of touch points that you have to do so. Can you see now that there's no fixed number of steps? It is contextual. The next time we hear an American say 12 to 30 something,

you can see it is contextual. Which country, which culture, which product, which price. One moment, sorry about that, another interruption. So I hope I've been able to make my point that there's no fixed number. It depends. And I've been able to explain the number of things that you have to take into account. So now if I stop here, I'll be leaving you confused. I'll be leaving directly confused. I believe in everybody confused.

And whole point of this podcast is not to confuse anybody, is to make progress, is to show the way, is to shine the light. Because like the people who mentioned last week who gave me reviews, the chief benefit of dealing with me is I'm not going to leave you until we know what the next step is. Because tomorrow morning, 8:00, nine o'clock, I want to be able to tell you that this is what you're supposed to do next. So let's move from a position of obscurity and let's move into enlightenment.

How many touches do you need? The answer is it depends. The answer is as many as necessary. The answer is as many as needed. To establish a few things, there's some things you need to establish. We need to establish that these people have a need for what we want. Sorry, a need for what we sell, what we produce. If we have a want or a need for it, that is good. First, we need to establish that there's a need. Then we need to establish that there's a good fit because sometimes they need your stuff.

But honestly speaking it they'll be better off served by looking at, you know, some other solution, some other product. So we need to establish there's a need. We need to establish that there's a good fit and we need to establish that it is financially viable. Because I can tell you first hand, my first wedding I collected 50,000 naira. Fulfilling that wedding, executing that wedding, I spent 47,000 naira. It was another waste of my time.

It was good for getting experience. And in fact, mom, she was even abusing me back then. She was telling me you're having better of just staying at home and just sending the buyer 5K. Just saying you know what, let me just help you. But we need to make sure that this thing is financially viable. So if it takes you 20 touches to figure out if there's a need, if there's a good fit and everything is financially viable, then 20 touches is what you need.

If you need 100, then that is what you need. Well, I was going to say if you need 2000, I don't know if there's anybody who needs 2000, but you get the point. Once you can establish these things, there's a need, there's a good fit, it's financially valuable, that's it. And you'll find that usually it falls within a certain number for your product, you know, for your service, for your industry, for your whatever. So you need to have been selling for a while, You need to have established a certain track record, a certain history.

It is then you can look back and say, you know what most of the deals we close where they all give me hassle, they pay me well, was a wonderful clients to work for. Most of the times, you know, we'll meet, we make like 20 phone calls, we have like 5 meetings and then we have one signing ceremony is then you will know. So that's all. Basically, some of you when you listen to this podcast will say how do I establish if there's a need, if it's a good fit and if it's financially viable.

It's pretty simple. There are lots of tools. They're called discovery frameworks, they're called qualification frameworks. Whatever it is that they're called. They are frameworks for how you engage people in conversation so that you can figure out a couple of things. Now, one simple, very basic, rudimentary qualification framework is something that Brian Tracy came up with in one of his old stuff where he would talk about want, need, afford.

Then there's some people who say don't stop there at urgency. So as many conversations, as many visits, as many phone calls, as many emails, as many site visits or whatever that you need to establish, want, need, afford an urgency. So whenever, if you're using this simple qualification framework, whenever you're touching somebody, by the way, I don't mean physically touch somebody. You know, we're in business now. Let's be mature here.

So phone call, meeting, WhatsApp, text, site visit, what else? Evaluation, Whatever your focus should always be on establishing want, need of word, urgency. Your first set of meetings, your first set of phone calls, your first set of emails, your first set of WhatsApp messages should just be built around how can I help you Want to be sure you can help. If you can help. If there's no need, there's no interest. What are you doing there?

Fade. If there's an interest and you can help. OK, continue. The next set of touch points should be built around. Is this what you actually need to solve your problem? If they need something else to solve your problem and you don't offer that thing, sorry to solve their problem and you don't offer that thing, refer them to somebody else and collect your Commission. Collect your 10%. The next set of touches will be built around afford you.

Let them know. Difficult budget range for all the things we've discussed are between XYZ and ABC. Is that OK? Try and hear where they fall. I keep saying it on the podcast and I'll repeat again. The reason why this data is important is because if your product is 1.5 where you're talking to somebody who thinks 750K is reasonable, there is no hope because the gap between 7:50 and 1.5 is times 2. That is too much. But if your product is 1.5,

you're talking to somebody who thinks 1.3 is reasonable. OK, there's room. You all can dance around the beat. So you need to have that conversation. So eventually your touch points will move to this is a typical budget range. Is it OK for you? Then we get down to urgency, urgencies. When you start, your thought points are now directed towards how soon do you want this thing? You have to ask that conversation, you have to have that conversation.

Back with the Agusi example, even if the person does not ask you how long to deliver from Anambra to Abuja, you the seller of the Agusi, ask the person, OK, you see you're coming from Abuja, OK, no problem, how soon do you want this Aguzzi delivered? You, the seller, you should be asking these questions. So whether is going to be one touch or 50 touch touches, it depends. But your first set of questions should be around how can I help you?

Next set of questions. Is this what you really need to solve this problem? Next set of touch points. The typical budget is between this and this. For all the things we're discussing so far. Is it cool? And then the final touch, the final set, how soon do you want this thing that is want, need afford an urgency? Do they want this thing? Do they need this thing? Can they afford this thing? Is there an essential urgency?

What is their timeline? How many steps it takes you to establish that that is what you need? And this is what I tell people now using these qualification frameworks, if you cannot establish any of these criteria, it is then you know you're wasting your time. What do they want? You asking them question? They're not using their mouths to say anything. They're being shifting, OK? What do they need? They're not saying anything.

From today they will say this thing. Tomorrow they will say that thing. OK, what can they afford? You've given them the basic options. They're not putting their foot down anywhere. They have not said it is closer to silver package. They've not said it's closer to bronze package. They've not said it's closer to copper package. They've not said anything. Urgency. How soon do they need this thing? They're not telling you whether it's January for delivery or December for delivery or August for delivery.

In that case, why are you wasting your time? Based on the qualification framework you have, you've not been able to establish anything at all. In that case, move. You've done all you can do. You've asked the questions, you've done the touch points. You've tried your best, but there's nothing you can do. You are your sales manager. You are your business partner. By the time you sit down, you can't answer any of these questions.

Retire. If you leave it, you can't do anything again. You don't know what they want. You don't know what they need. You don't know if they can afford it. You don't know if there's any urgency. You don't know their timelines. In that case, you don't do much leave it freed. Another qualification, popular band budget authority need timeline. By the way, when I talk about these qualification frameworks and I pick the ones that have 4

letters, you know, acronyms, 4 words. I'm not saying that the best. I'm not saying if it's four. It's easy to remember because there's some qualification frameworks that is like 16 words or 16 steps. The problem with those ones is who is going to remember 16 steps. But this simple one that I've told you won't need afford urgency. If you are a negotiator and you're in the market in your head, you can be walking through it.

OK, I've asked questions around want, I've asked questions around need. I've asked questions around afford. I'm now asking questions around urgency. Have I missed anything easy to remember 4 steps 1234. So the same with budget authority, need timeline, band is just for easy to remember. So in typical fashion, if you're using band as your qualification framework, then you start off well, it doesn't have to be in any particular order, but let's just continue in the order it is rating.

So budget, you have the question. OK, Sir, Madam, typically the kind of things we're talking about usually fall between this and this. Is that budget range OK for you? For those of you who would like to use band, the reason why I recommend it is because it is nice for us to separate the serious people from the workout pass from the beginning. So if in our first meeting you can decide whether you can figure out whether you're with a serious person or not, it will help you greatly.

So it's not a bad conversation to have a typically cause between this and between that is now OK for you. It's OK more continue. It's not OK or orga be stepping or orga. I'll catch you another time and then you move then authority. You need to have those questions in your business, in your house, in your whatever who's responsible for XYZ you need to ask them. Sorry one moment. Sounds like the children are killing themselves outside.

Let me go and see what's up. OK, I'm back. Sorry about that. The kids are fighting over tablets outside. Anyway, that's how it is normally now when you have kids around. Total chaos, total mehem. OK, now where was I? OK, I believe I was talking about banned budget authority, need timeline, you know, as a qualification framework. And I hope I pointed out that there are other frameworks. You know, there's medic, there's Medpic, there is like there are many, some 4 steps, some 5, some 10, some 12, some 16.

I only talk about these ones that have 4:00 because easy to understand, easy to remember means easy to do also means you don't need to have it written down. Because it's not going to be every single time that we have your paper. You have your checklist, you have your diary, you have your whatever when you're talking to someone, because sometimes you're just chilling. Now, you know, you are Madame, you guys are just driving.

You come out from the movie and somebody just boss you, you know, wife puts it on speaker and it's a business deal. So as you're driving, you know, you have this mental checklist in your head. You can't just be, you know, OK, what do they want? I've asked them what do they need? I've asked them what can they afford? I've asked them urgency, When do they need it? When do they want to deliver? I've asked them, you can now say, OK, I believe I've got enough.

Hope you don't mind. I'm driving. Just give me 20 minutes. When I reach out, you know, I'll boss you back with a proposal, you know, sharp, sharp, easy to remember. You don't need to tell wifey, you know, I beg, bring my jotter, let me pull over. Let me take this call, you know, all this kind of thing. So in the beginning, all those five step, eight step, 12 step ones sound very, very glamorous, but just leave those ones for now.

Simple, simple. You come across any qualification or framework that is, you know, 2 two step, 3 three-step. Please start from there. Not because it's the best. It'll be easy to remember, it'll be easy to do. It'll also get you in the habit of guiding these, your conversations, guiding these touch points when you're with people. So you start with budget listening stability laws between blah, blah, blah and so, so, so are you cool with that?

You hear where they fall? You now ask them who's responsible for. OK, let me see. Let me see now. OK, so today now me and Momsey went out to go and buy a phone case, because for phone the case is old and mom always likes phone case to be fresh, you understand now? So I went to one place in Marcudi, can't remember what the place is called, but very, very nice place. Very, very nice. All kinds of earphones there 'cause like my earphones are the Redmi, Redmi 66 space buds.

I mean, that's what they're called, something like that. I used the budget version. So I went there. Now I saw the professional versions, this professional version of how much the guy called the figure. I had to ask the guy again. I say Bros, did you say 19 or did you say 90? The guy laughed. He said OK, I said 9090. So yeah, now another bee was passing in our top the babe and say I'm sorry chenery about this hair for how much is it?

And then she said 90. I'm guess I told you now it is 90, not 19. That's an earphone 90K. That's how to come, where to come? Let's focus on Mummy first. Anyway, so while we're there now I saw these wonderful speakers, I can't remember what they're called. Is it JBL or something? Massive big speaker. It looks like cement blocks like 2 stuck together that big. And the sound from the speakers. Mad, really, really mad. So let's say now you have that kind of shop and that's what you sell.

You tell those speakers, now you want to use band. The first thing you tell the guy who is asking is, oh, we have different kinds of speakers In this particular range. They cost anything between 50 to 120,000. Are you cool with that? And the person says, yeah, sounds about fair. What about this one in particular? How much does it cost? OK, now you know you're talking to a reasonable somebody. But in my own case, you see where the guy called the figure and I say, is he 19 or did you say 90?

Is it 19 or 90? When somebody responds like that, you now know that from a business perspective, you have a very useless somebody in front of you also because the gap between 19 and 19 is big. So of course, the guy didn't even bring it up again, because he knows that I may tell you whether a customer, you know, come and go, you know, work I pass for the purpose of your phone is not taking me seriously. So it's the same thing, but your conversation.

The next thing authority who's responsible for XYZ? You have to have that conversation or guide the speaker that you want to buy. Who was he for? Is he in the house or is it maybe like when you are Madam outside throwing beach party or something? You need to ask all these questions. Usage authority, who is in charge, who is in control, how you go use them. All these things you need to ask because it'll help you to make the best recommendation.

So if they say, oh, that we like to go out a lot, sometimes we're at the beach. If one particular model is not, what do they call it? Weather, weather ceiling, weather resistant. You don't be able to tell our brush. No, not this one. This one does not have weather ceiling. If sand enter inside, it was spoiled. If small drizzle enter inside, it was spoiled. So brush buy this one instead, then we're done. Authority, OK, we don't need kind of then timeline.

So is there any special occasion you're looking forward to? Are you willing to pick this up now or you know, you have that kind of question too. So whether you're having that kind of conversation with someone who came into the store or whether you start the conversation small and then you collect the person's phone number and you guys talk again later on on the phone, this is how you are guiding the touch points. Have you had the budget conversations, the money conversations?

Have you had the authority conversations? Have you had the new conversations? Have you had the timeline conversations? When you can give an answer for all these questions, then you have done enough touch points. It is now time to try and close the deal. If you know what the budget is, what the authority is, what the need is, you don't have a sense of timeline, probably not a good time to try and close. You know, touch up small, follow up small, follow through small.

When you get a sense of the timelines in here, I've done enough. Try to close. The same with want, need, afford an urgency. If you don't know what they want, you don't know what they need. You don't know if they can afford it. You don't have a sense of urgency. Even if you've spoken to them for 50 times, you're not ready to try and close the deal. In fact, because you've spoken to them for 50 times and you don't have the answer of any of these questions, I guess it's time to give up.

But you're your business partner, you're your line manager. If you guys sit down and you can answer the question, this is what they want, this is what they need, this is what they can afford, this is a sense of urgency, this is their timeline. Good. You probably know enough to try and close even if you've only had two conversations with them. So that's it. Like I said, these are some of the things I'm going to be talking about in particular now.

We're going to be ironing out in fine detail come the 12th of January 2026 all the way to the 23rd. So there's Downley and a couple of people that I'm chatting with right now who are going to be in the room. You want to meet interesting people. You want to find out how other Nigerian people are making money because I will never forget the day when as the teacher in front of the class I was teaching, one of my students annual turnover was annual turnover I think was 20 something million.

I know 20 cent 27,000,000 is not big. The thing that all shocked me was what the guy sells is he sells maggots as you know, animal feed and stuff like that. And in my mind, I'm wondering you just like it was not my own setup. So I couldn't call the guy outside and start game question because was another person I was organizing the thing that you know, they just brought me in and you know, they said to me later. So I was not in charge.

But honestly speaking, honestly asking Margaret, 20 something million how the people in this country who are doing big things in ways you've never heard about it before. The people that are producing audio book. There are people that are selling Margaret. There's a woman that I know how old is she selling algae? I say how do you even produce algae? How do you even say algae? Are you going to be cutting the algae in the microscope 111 or?

Anyway, Sir, you guys should be in the room at some of these things that people making money in ways that you never heard of before. So if you'd like to take part in the training, come the 12th of January 2026, call, send me a WhatsApp message, Send me a text message on 0806466 2140. Remember, for our collection money, I'll be one. I'll have a conversation with you because I need to know who are you, what's your business about, what problems are you facing?

What goes the hour for 2026 so that by the time we start on the 12th of January, I can tell you that these are the specific ways 1234 Now by the time we finish with this training, this is what we are going to achieve or this is what we're going to start moving or please bear in mind I've been saying it for the last two weeks. This is not for lazy people. Don't come up and ask me about guarantee. There is no guarantee.

It depends on you. The best I can do is I can show you the way like Moses. There's the promised land. The rest is up to you. OK, What did Joshua say? Joshua said, As for me, at my house, we shall serve the Lord. Just for a point. I say, look, there's a promised land. The rest is up to you. If you want to advance, it's up to you. If you want to go back to Egypt, it's up to you. So to ask me about guarantee, there is no guarantee.

You are the guarantee. We will sit down, we will have these difficult conversations, and we'll figure out what needs to be done next. Whether the thing gets done is entirely up to you. You are the guarantee, not me. But whether you take part in the training or not, it's not a problem. I'd like to meet you anyway because I like meeting cool and interesting people like Downey. In fact, I'm looking forward to see what other interesting names I can come across.

Oh, by the way, Downey was named after the first Chief Justice of Nigeria. And as a law student, I'm surprised it's something I didn't know. But yeah, that's it. You learn new things every day. That's the beauty of sales. That's the beauty of business, interesting people every single day you learn something new every single day. So reach out to be a part of the program on the 12th to the 23rd of January 2026 or just connect to say what's up, say hello or to have your questions, queries or comments answered.

So thank you very much for your time and attention. I will catch you all some other time.