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Today on the podcast, we're going to do the third part, the final part of OK. Now if you're listening to the podcast for the first time, the last two days we've been talking about how sales and selling is hard and in fact in the early days is the hardest business function that you will have to undertake to grow your business. So I've been trying to get listeners of the podcast to have the right perspective to have when it comes to sales and marketing because it's going to be hard because it's going to be challenging.
There are certain things that we have to do to succeed. And if this your first time listening to the podcast, Part 1, which was two days before and Part 2, which was yesterday, after you're done listening to this, listen to those parts, those two parts to bring you up to speed and also to give you the conceptual framework for what it is that we are going to discuss today. Because today in particular, I want to start looking at the question, when would you be justified to start feeling discouraged?
Because I've spent two days trying to tell you guys like, relax, it's going to be hard. It's not entirely your fault. This is the right perspective to have. But then I don't want, you know, this whole idea of, you know, people being positive forever and hopeful forever. Yes, there's a time to feel discouraged and there's a time to start diagnosing. Are things working and are things going wrong? So today we're going to look at when to start feeling discouraged.
And this is going to be the final part of the series. Now, apologies, today is going to be a noisy episode because for those of you who are regular listeners, it's a Tuesday. You know that the house gets cleaned on Tuesday. So that's going on. Then the holidays also here and my kids are in the room with me as at the time of this recording. So you know, they're on the computer doing Scratch coding or some other stuff. So because of that, expect to hear some noise in the background.
But in the usual tradition over here on the podcast, this is not going to detract, It's not going to take away from the value that I hope to deliver to you guys over the couple of minutes that we have together. Then for those of you who are listening to the podcast for the first time, my name is Tava Shima aide. I'm a lawyer turned business consultant. And over here we tackle business problems every other day, especially business problems that can be solved by marketing or solved by personal selling.
So if you'd love to connect with my LinkedIn, just get the correct spelling of my name from the podcast episode, wherever you're listening to this podcast. Then if you'd love to connect personally, you want to call, send me a text message or a WhatsApp message. You can do that at 08064662140. And yes, when you try to get in touch, it will be me. I'm still minding the phones for now, but when I become a certified big boy, I will have APA do it.
But for now it's me. Then let's see what else, OK. And then of course, if you if you're feeling the vibe and you like these sorts of issues, then subscribe to the podcast on Spotify, on YouTube, on Apple or any player of your choice. So like I said, when should we start feeling discouraged? So yes, we acknowledge that it is hard and yes, we acknowledge that most of the times it is not your fault. But still we need to be able to be in the right frame of mind to be able to know that OK, looks as if things are not working.
When should we start diagnosing? Because we can be hopeful and positive forever. So 1 moment. OK, I'm sorry about that. Like I said, my kids are here, so I needed to attend to a few things. All right, now when to start feeling discouraged? Now to make this very, very practical because I don't like doing theory over here, we are going to consider 2 particular contexts because I've had these conversations with people in the last maybe like one month.
One person is still in school, the other person has a regular job. This is also another thing that we need to take into perspective when we're thinking about these things. Those of you who are feeling discouraged, it's hard enough as it is. When it is your sole job, it is your sole responsibility to try and grow the business. But those of you who are still in school and those of you who still have a 95, you need to give yourself some grace because it's an awful lot like you're juggling.
So you guys in particular, you will need to be more kinder to yourselves. And that's the reason why I'm looking at this too in particular because those are the last set of conversations I've had someone feeling discouraged growing a business, getting sales, but the guys in school, another person trying to grow a business struggling with sales, but she's at work. So those are, let me just say your situation is challenging,
but regardless of whether you're in school or whether you're in work, this is 1 exercise I want us to do. I want us to assume that we have a closing ratio of 10%. I repeat, I want us to assume that we have a closing ratio of 10%. Now the 10% is not any. Oh, OK. First of all, let me just define what a closing ratio is. When we're trying to close, when we're trying to secure a deal and we're talking to a potential customer, we are going to advance people through the business relationship and we're going to advance the cause of the sale going through several steps.
So excuse me. For those of you who are regular listeners, you know that after my time as a lawyer, I transitioned into wedding photography. And that's where I like to I like to use that to illustrate this whole thing of how you move people through the deal. So my preferred way of getting business as a young wedding photographer was I would go to wedding shows because I like that sort of thing. I like seeing people face to face.
I like talking to strangers. I like having a conversation one-on-one. I like picking up the phone to call people. I like going to the office. I like having them come over to my studio back when I had the studio. So for me, step one was go to the wedding Expo. The wedding Expo is like a business. What's it called now? I call it now like a trade fair for those of you who have been to trade fairs. So it's the same thing.
Waiting photographs to be there, Wedding video people, event planners, cake people, MC pyrotechnics, you know, firework, What else? Light and sound while there and we're hoping to get business from brides and grooms who are passing through and looking at the different vendors, the different setups, the different services. So that is what I preferred. So we show up at the venue and the first thing would be try and engage strangers in conversation.
So if you're mangling on the floor and you're able to engage someone in conversation, the goal is bring them back to the stand. If you're able to get them back to the stand, you have been able to successfully complete what we call a conversion. A conversion is when you get someone to take the next step. Then when they come to the stand and you're having a conversation with them, the goal is before they leave, you should collect an address, a phone number, an e-mail address, a something so that you can establish contact in the future.
If you're able to get the contact details, the contact detail, then you have completed another conversion. They're moving the business deal forward another step. Then after they leave the event, you would send a text message to try and, you know, warm them up like, hey, what's up? What's nice having you understand, this is me looking forward to the meeting that we agreed, you know, for next week Monday, blah, blah, blah.
Are we still on course? If they respond and they're able to confirm the meeting, that is another conversion. Then at the meeting you talk a little bit more about what they want to achieve for the wedding. And then the next stage will be maybe they come over to your office, to your studio, or you go and meet them in the house or in the office. And then you guys start looking at samples and then you schedule another meeting.
That is another conversion at the next meeting. When you look at samples, the goal would be you try and get them to agree that they like one or two things or maybe two or three but not too much. When they agree on the ones that they like, then the next step would be OK since you like Option A, Option B, option C. At this stage I can go and work on a proposal and start putting NAIRA and COBOL next to it so that you can decide on which particular idea, which particular package you want.
If they agree to that next proposal meeting, that is another conversion. Then at the proposal meeting you talk over a few things. You get them to try and narrow down which one do they like or which elements do they like from which just in case you have to come up with something bespoke for them. If you guys narrow it down to 1 package or a certain range of prices, that is another conversion. Now the reason why I'm using this is I'm trying to illustrate how the business is closed when you move people through step by step by step.
So it's one step after another and after another before you get people to the point where you now say, OK, will you transfer IB? Is it going to be card payment? This is my OP number, this is my GT bank number, this is my whatever. So that is how business deals are closed, step by step. The reason why I'm explaining this is because, first of all, I don't want people, when we talk about closing ratio, some people assume that you can just meet a total stranger and then close the deal.
Now like that. The people who are skilled at doing that sort of thing, it's an advanced technique. I don't know that I don't teach that. And for those of us who are brand new, actually let us learn on doing the simpler basic stuff first before we start trying to be advanced. And the simple basic stuff is we close the deal one step at a time. We get them to commit to one small thing, another small thing, another small thing.
And that's how we close the deal. So the closing ratio just means when you're talking to people, all these processes we're talking about, how many people do you start the process with? And then how many people do you collect money from at the end of the day? Because remember, for those of you who've been listening to the podcast for a while, that as a younger wedding photographer, on average I'll select 2530 people who drop their phone number.
So you're starting this phone number with 2530 people at the beginning. Sorry. Now at the beginning, at the end of the wedding Expo or the business Expo or whatever it is I want to call it, we start this process. Phone call, phone call, meeting, meeting, office visit office, visit house, visit house, visit location, scouting, you know, whatever it is. Then at the end of the day, how many people do you collect money from?
So if you start the process with 30 people and at the end of the day you only collect money from one person, then your closing ratio. Sorry, forgive me, I'm not very good at math and at this point in time I won't be surprised if my children are disappointed in me. But I'm assuming that if you collect money from one person and you are talking to 30 people, then your closing ratio I think is about what's that? Is it 3%?
I'll be 1.5%. Anyway, whatever it is, that's your closing ratio. If you talk to 30 people and then you end up doing business with three, then that is a closing ratio of is that 10%. So forgive me, my mouth is not right, but you guys understand where I'm heading. So what is the ideal closing ratio? There is none because it depends on you, depends on your level of expertise, depends on your level of maturity in the business,
depends on what it is that you're selling. It depends on the industry, it depends on the culture, it depends on a whole lot of stuff. So there's no ideal closing ratio. But when you're starting off fresh in whatever business, if you're doing 10%, it's not bad. So as a brand new wedding photographer, if you're talking to 30 people and you're only doing business with three is not ideal, it's not the best, but well, at least we're starting on an OK note.
We now know that we either need to work on your targeting or your messaging. Maybe you're talking to the wrong people because you know, some people prefer some kinds of wedding photographers over others. Or maybe your messaging is wrong, you're not using the right words when trying to address them, when trying to send them e-mail messages or text messages or phone calls. So we know either need to work on our targeting or our messaging and we're trying to improve our conversions.
Now I remember what I said earlier, conversions is you're talking to someone and you're trying to get them to take the next step so that ultimately you can close the deal. So let us all assume that we're starting at 10%. And remember, if you're already at 10%, it's not bad. We now know that we are working on the targeting, we're working on the messaging, and we're trying to improve our conversions because for that number to go up to 15 percent,
20%, thirty percent, 40%, we need to improve our conversions. So back to the wedding photographer example, If you're on the floor and you chat with 90 people and you only get 35 to come to the desk, if you want to get better at this thing, all you should try and do is we're talking to 90 people. We should try and see how we can get 80 of them to come to the desk automatically. You can see that if you improve one conversion, it has implications further down the stage.
So if in the beginning you talk to 90 but you only collect details of 30, if you talk to 90 and you collect the details of 80, you can see that the probabilities now start looking in your favour. So we start working on our conventions. So back to the wedding photographer example. How many people do I talk to on the floor? If we can increase the number of quality conversations I have on the floor, it would be good for me and for the business.
How many people do I get to come back to the desk? If I can increase the number and the quality of people who come to the desk, it'll be good for me and it'll be good for the business. For the people who come to the desk. How many phone numbers, e-mail addresses, office addresses, house addresses am I able to collect? If I can increase the number and the quality of the addresses, the contact details that I get, it'll be good for me.
It'll be good for the business of the contact details that we collect. How many meetings are we able to secure? If I can increase the number of meetings that I secure and the quality of meetings that I secure, it'll be good for me. It'll be good for the business. From the meetings that we secure, how many proposals did I send? If I can increase the quality and the number of the proposals that I send, it'll be good for the business.
It'll be good for me. Of the proposals that I send, how many, how many of those proposals am I able to get people to pay a deposit on? If I can increase the number and the quality of the deposits that I collect will be the good, will be good for the business, it'll be good for me. So you can see how it works. Let's just assume that we're starting at 10% and the goal is if I'm 10% in December of 2025, hopefully by February, March of 2026, I want to be doing 13
percent, 14% as in small, small. Too many people are trying to grow their business 10X. You made 1,000,000 in 2025. Too many of you are trying to grow from 1,000,000 to 10 million in 2026. Relax, calm down. It's part of the reason why you're feeling discouraged or healthy expectations. Let's assume that we're starting at 10%. 10% is not ideal, but it's not bad. The goal is let's be going small. Small 121317202340 percent, 50.
By the way, there's no such thing as 100%. Nobody closes at 100%. It's not possible, so they even bother trying. Now, why was I OK? So let's start off by assuming that our closing ratio right now is that we are at 10%. By the way, for those of you who are still in school and for those of you who are still at work, can you see now where you guys are in a much more difficult situation? If you're in school, where are you going to find these 304050
contacts to be talking to? Because you have lectures, excuse me, you have lecture, you have fellowship. And then of course, you know, you have personal commitments because know how know how? If you're a boy, you could define babe. If you're a baby with define bubble surround is normal. So where are you going to find time if you're at work? Even worse, if you're based in Lagos, you're stuck in traffic, 2 hours going, two hours coming.
So that means tomorrow before the day will start, 4 hours. You've already wasted 4 hours through no fault of your own not to talk. Of the 810 hours that you stay at work, where will you find the time to find 20304050 prospects to start talking to so you can see how difficult that this is? Sorry, one moment. OK, sorry about that. I'm back. I had to mediate between my boys. OK, now assuming that we have a closing ratio of 10%, this is what I want you guys to pay attention to.
Those of you who are feeling discouraged, especially those of you who are in school or those of you who are at work, pay attention. Now, assuming 10%, if you only talked to 10 people last week, honestly speaking, you're brand new. Realistically speaking, you only have hope of getting one or two meetings. Assuming you talk to 10 people. Now, if you have one or two meetings, why do you assume that the first proposal you drop,
you'll just end up closing the deal? Can you guys see where some of this frustration is coming from? You only spoke to 10 people, you got 2 meetings, you dropped two proposals and you're angry that you didn't close any single deal? This is what I was talking about in the previous podcast episode where I said right technique but also right quantity. You have done and said the right things. Excuse me, but you have not done and said the right things to the right number of people, to a sufficient quantity, a sufficient number of people to give you the best chance for success.
If you'd spoke to 10 people and dropped two proposals, don't expect that those two will close. By the way, if you talk to 10 people, you drop 2 proposals and consistently every single time you're closing those two deals, then congratulations, It means you're a superstar. So what you need to do now is you need to improve your targeting so that instead of talking to 10 people and sending 2 proposals, if you target the right people, you can talk to 10
people and maybe submit 8 proposals and then end up closing on the 8th. Hope you guys have been easy to see the dynamics at play and how this thing works. So summary, what I'm saying is when should you start feeling discouraged? Don't start feeling discouraged if you've only spoken to 10 people. Let me repeat for those of you who are listening for the first time. If you have only spoken to 10 people, what are you feeling discouraged for?
You haven't started yet. You only spoke to 10 people. Remember, we are assuming 10%. So in other words, for the average person, if you want to send out 10 proposals and you're brand new in business for the average person, I'm not swearing for you is not a cost. But honestly speaking for the average person who will start off closing at 10%. If you want to send out 10 proposals this month, don't be afraid. Honestly speaking you it's more like you talk to 100 people that's to drop 10 proposals you have to talk to more like 100
people. So I'm not trying to make you guys afraid though. But remember, we are assuming 10% your brand new, you don't know anything at all. So it's just a matter of chances, a matter of luck. You know 10% is just about right. So a lot of you are feeling discouraged, but you're feeling discouraged prematurely. You've only spoken to 10 people. I'm sorry you're being discouraged prematurely. If you've only spoken to 20 people, I'm afraid I understand your discouragement.
But my brother, my sister, it is too soon. If you've spoken to 100 people, I don't think you're making progress. OK, now we need to sit down and talk the most. Might be a serious problem, like your targeting is off, but maybe you spoke to 100 people, but you spoke to the wrong category of people. Or you spoke to the right people but your messaging is totally off. Or your messaging is correct, but how you advance the sale is totally wrong.
Your conversions are wrong. But do not, I repeat, do not be discouraged because you've spoken to 1020 people. Talking to 10 or 20 people is just the price of admission. If you're starting off as a wedding photographer, talking to 1020 brides is just the price of admission. It just means you know you're a jam bite. You are just starting 1020 people. That is just orientation in business. That's just your orientation. That's your business.
One O 1. If you're an architect, it's the same thing. The 1st 1020 people you talk to, that one is just jam bite rush. You know, orientation week. That's just it. Don't discourage yourself. Speaking of jam bite rush boys, now remember when we're in uni now you enter, you start seeing some nice things up and down, and then you try your luck. So yes, between semester 1 and semester 2, you must have pursued like, you know, 10-15
people. But you didn't lose hope now and today you're happily married with children. It's the same thing. Anyway, let me stop here before I say something that is liable to get me cancelled. So if you are a newbie, you're fresh in business you haven't yet talked to. Maybe some of you are saying I'm being harsh, but I'm just being realistic. We haven't spoken to 3040. Fifty people. Like, what are you feeling discouraged for?
Well, talk to 50 people first. Then we can start trying to figure out if there's a problem. So like back to the wedding photographer example. You go for a better show, you talk to 3050 contacts. You didn't close the single deal. OK, in that case, I can say, OK, it's time to start diagnosing what's going on and it's time to start feeling discouraged because you put in a number of reps, but then there's some of you who you come in brand new,
you got your equipment, you bought the studio space, You only spoke to five people already feeling discouraged, like business is hard, like a comb on now. So if you're a newbie, there's more work than you think and some of you are feeling discouraged prematurely, you need to talk to more prospects. So after you've spoken to a few people, what is the ideal number? I don't know, but for me, I like it when I see that somebody has spoken to, you know, 30-40 fifty people before you start feeling discouraged.
Assuming a 10% closing ratio, I would like that you have spoken to 100 people. I know it sounds harsh. Then after that we can start trying to figure out our targeting. Is our targeting on point? See, let me give you guys one concrete example. In the beginning, as a wedding photographer, I used to take business from every single person. But then after a while, I realized that there were certain classes of brides that me and them we used to fight all the time.
I'm not picking on those of you who are yellow. I'm just keeping it real here. I realized that me and yellow babes, we always used to fight because I delivered the photo and they would say, what is this? I'm not this, I'm not this black. Never mind. I'm thinking like, now your color be this, now No, be me, shooter. No, say no, no, no, no, no. I'm not this dark. They wanted me to make them more yellow. So I just, I saw the pattern after a while that if it's a yellow babe, me and yellow babe,
we must fight. But then I met another photographer more senior, and the guy told me that, oh, that is scope. It's not just whether the baby's yellow or not. Now when you see that the baby's yellow, you look at her knuckle and then you look at the elbow. If you look at the knock when you see black, then you know that there will be a fight. Those ones are particular about their skin, but if you look at the knuckle, you look at the elbow and you see yellow.
Like is photo comp factory fitted and hand those ones, no problem. Don't be any fight. So after a while, I learned to start targeting brides of a certain color, and if they're yellow, I'll look at Noku and I'll look at elbow. If I see black, I know that this is not the customer for me. I'm just using this one as a concrete way to illustrate. When we talk about targeting, like who are you chasing? You actually have to be chasing the right kind of person.
The person that you look, who vibe with you, flow with the people that you have chances of actually helping them out, increase the chances that they will like you, that they will love you, that you have a happy customer and they can get repeat business from. That's the reason why I say that when it comes to sales, targeting one O 1 is key. I'll be running after the right person. Now, if you're new in this space as a young wedding photographer and you've only spoken to five brides, how are we supposed to know who you're supposed to be targeting?
How? How do we know if you're supposed to be chasing northern brides or ebow brides or western brides? Or whether you have a problem with yellow brides or whether you have a problem with black brides, or whether for you high end weddings are the ideal things, or whether you need to start at that, you know, low level cater first and then work your way up. How do we know if you've only spoken to 10 prospects? We really don't know who we should be targeting, if you're targeting is on point or if you're targeting is off.
And this applies for every single business. So can you see that when I say 50 or 100, even though it sounds harsh, can you see that honestly, if you've only spoken to 510 people, you're feeling discouraged prematurely. You have not done enough legwork for us to even know what's going on. So let me stop here. This is 30 minutes. So let me bring this podcast episode to a close. So over the last three days, I hope I've been able to give you guys the right level of expectations when it comes to how difficult sales is going to be.
And I hope I've been able to give you guys a sense of the things that we will have to work on so that we can improve your business. If you listen to yesterday's episode and the one the day before, you'll remember that I'm organizing the training. It's a paid training in January of 2026. It's going to start on the 12th of January. It is for people who want to improve their businesses, who want to improve their conversions, especially people who are interested and desirous of learning how to sell on the phone.
So consultants, this will be good for you. People who are in Tele sales, this will be good for you. Even if you're not a consultant or you're not in Tele sales, but you think you're like me, you like making phone calls and you like hooking up meetings, this will be good for you. But remember that I would like to meet you guys, have a chat with you guys to be sure this program is a fit for you before we begin because this is going to be a paid training.
As much as I like money, I do not want to be a fraud. So I only want to collect money from people that I know that I can help. If I can't help you, I won't collect your money. In fact, I'll try and send you elsewhere where you can get some value. So if you're interested in being a part of the cohort for the 12th of January 2026, call, send me a text message or a WhatsApp message on 08064662140. Remember that one of my clients who is based in Leki Osaka, Leki ABI Osaka, London, as they call it, he's trying to put together a sales team for his business.
And we've agreed that some of the people who pass through this training of mine. Sorry, one moment. OK, I'm back. Sorry about that. Like I said, it's a Tuesday, house is being cleaned, so I had to leave. I was recording and then move things around a little bit. So if I remember correctly, I was talking about how my client is based in Leckie, the company is in Osaka, London. And we've agreed that the people that I talked to next year on the 12th of January 2026, this is going to be a two week thing from the 12th of January until the 23rd.
But it's going to be Monday to Fridays only. So don't worry, you're going to have your weekends off. The people who I think are the best candidates or the candidates they'll be most suited for his kind of industry, for his kind of selling contacts, I will be making introductions to him so that they can be considered to be part of his sales team. So if there are those of you who want to take part in this training and you're hoping to get some paid employment out of it, then reach out on 08064662140.
You can call, you can send me a text message, you can send me a WhatsApp message. And remember, I'd like to get to know you guys first before we begin and before I collect your money, because I love money, but I am not a fraudster. Before I collect your money, I want to be sure that I can help you. I want to know what kind of businesses you run. I want to know what kind of challenges you're facing. I want to know what kind of milestones, what kind of goals that you want to hit so that we can work together and so that this is going to be a good time both for me and for you as well.
But for those of you who are interested in the Employment Opportunity, we will only be considering people who are based in Lagos because this is going to be an office thing, not a hybrid thing. I repeat, this is going to be an office thing. Nine to five, you will be using the phone a lot. You'll be making phone calls. You will be expected. To have started making phone calls by 9:00 AM daily, which is the reason why I've been saying that we're only looking for people who are disciplined,
people who are focused and people who are willing to put in the work. And it will not be a hybrid thing. Let me repeat, please, this will not be a hybrid thing. Don't form my hand. Don't disappoint me. Don't start. And they now start saying, can we make this thing hybrid? It is not hybrid, it is full time and on location, which is why we're only considering people who are based in Lagos and only people who live on the island or who are close to the island.
The closer you are to Osaka Lakey, the better, because we don't want. To put anybody in the. Situation where it's taking you 2 hours to get to work. We don't want a 2 hour commute, we want you to get to work happy and fresh because calling on the phone is hard work. If you've been stuck in a downfall for 2 1/2 hours, 3 hours, it's tough to go and sit down in the cubicle and start calling. So only going to be considering people who are based in Lagos and people who live on the island, who live in Laki, who are close to Osaka.
So that your commute. Is not. Long and so that you. Don't spend too much on transport. So please do not. Apply if you live in Ikeja, for instance, except if you're fine with that whole thing of, you know, I haven't lived in Lagos for a while, but back when I lived in Lagos, in Ikeja, you know, for those of us who wanted to be on the island by 8, you need to wake up at 4:30. So if you're OK for that 430 lifestyle, then sure, no problem, apply.
But it will be full time. And. It will be on location. There is no hybrid. You will be making lots of phone calls. And part of the curriculum. That we have for the 12th of January to the 23rd of January 2026 is we're going to be doing a lot about the phone. How do you start? The conversation How do you build rapport? How do you make? An. Effective presentation. How do you follow up effectively? How do you build a relationship over the phone?
How do you close the deal? Over the phone, if there's anything that we need to troubleshoot, how do we do that over the phone? Shah How? Do we sell on? The phone that is going to be the focus of the training. So it's been. 36 minutes. Let me. Bring it to a close. Thank you very much for your time and attention. Remember to subscribe on Spotify, YouTube, Apple, or any player of your choice where you're currently listening to the podcast.
Thank you very much for your time and attention. I'll catch you some other time and again, if you'd love to connect with me. You have questions, you have comments, you have queries or you want to ask about the training, then the number to call to send a text message or a WhatsApp message to is 08064662140. So that's it. I'll catch you guys some other time.