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Hello, and welcome to the show. Today is going to be a noisy episode because I'm not in the audio booth. It's a full house, and you know, even the neighbour's kids are around. So I expect to hear some noise coming in every now and then. Today on the show, we are going to be exploring Chapter 3. The title of Chapter 3 is The Art of Elicitation. And if this is your first time of listening to the show, what we're doing is we're exploring themes that occur in a book that was written by Jeremy Hurowitz.
And it was written on August, well, published August 27th, I think, 2024, last year. It's a brand new book. So one of my schoolmates who is a lawyer who handles the practice of divorce and things like that, family law, basically, he's the one that put it up. And I thought it would be a good book to look at because Jeremy Hurowitz title of the book is Sell Like a Spy, the Art of persuasion from the world of espionage. The main thesis and the main idea that the author is making this book is that there are things that spies and diplomats and people in that kind of world have to do that we sales people also have to do as well.
So if this is the first time of listening to the show, then skip back a couple of episodes. You don't have to go past more than maybe 5 or 6 because I think I've only been on this for about a week. So you'll be able to get, you'll be able to get all the gist from the past episodes basically. So today we're going to be exploring chapter 3, The art of elicitation. Now if you'd love to connect with me, the phone number to use is 08064662140.
The country code is lost 234. For those of you who are not Nigerian, that is my WhatsApp number. So feel free to send me a WhatsApp message there. Although if you're sending a message to me for the first time, please don't include any links, photos, PDFs or something like that. I mean, until I know you and you know, we start flowing, I'm not going to click on any link. You know, safety first then. Oh yeah. Connect with me on socials.
My name is Tavish Shima Ayede. I'm the host of the show. You find me on LinkedIn. All other profiles are currently being deleted, but they all have this profile that if you start trying to delete your profile, there's a like a 30 day wait period. So you might find my profile, but I'm not there. I'm not checking it. So LinkedIn only. So today, like I said, we're exploring Chapter 3, the art of elicitation, and the name of the book is Cell Like a spy, The art of persuasion from the world of espionage.
The author is Jeremy Hurwitz. And let me see, Let me see. Sorry. Hold on. I made a couple of notes. I'm trying to refer. Aha. Yeah. So remember that since what we're doing is we're exploring themes in the book, This is not a book review. I am not reading the book. I'm going over line by line. I would advise you guys to read the book first hand for yourself instead of relying on me. You know, going through themes. Now some of you might wonder where can I find this book?
Obviously you can find it on Amazon if sorry, excuse me if you don't have that Amazon money, no problem. For those of you who are in Lagos, if you go to Ajota New Garage, those guys, they, they have everything. I am not endorsing piracy. If I let me just stop talking right now. Just go to adjust our new garage. If it's not there, talk to one of those boys. I'm sure next week you'll be able to get a copy. Then also Oshodi, there are lots of book hawkers in Oshodi who can get access to those sorts of things.
Then if you're based in Maitama, there are lots of book hawkers. So if you're based in Abuja, there are lots of book hawkers in Maitama between Federal Secretariat and Hilton Hotel. You know those boys, if you let them know what's up, they should be able to hook you up. So yeah, go buy a copy of the book and read. The best thing to do, the most ethical thing to do, the most legal thing to do, the most moral thing to do is to go on Amazon and buy it directly so that our guy Jeremy Hurwitz can get a cut of it.
So let's look into some of the themes that are in Chapter 3. Oh, before we do that, I forgot the shout outs. So First off, I'm going to shout out Angela Mechi Princess. I hope I got your name right. Shout out Angela Mechi Princess because she's been supporting a lot of the posts on LinkedIn where I talk about the podcast. So thank you very much for the support. Then also shout out to Okaryi Namdi, who's a web designer and also a convener of something called the BSE.
And the BSE is the biggest s s business hangout. Oh yeah, I remember this guy, I, I gave him my phone number. I told him I should reach out to me on WhatsApp 'cause I only hear about this s s business hangout. And the more details that I get Harmony share with you guys over here on the show. Because all I put it, you know, we all come from different tribes, different regions and of course, yes, we're all in love with one Nigeria, but we can't run away from the fact that on the regional basis, you know,
some of us have some particular problems that maybe people in the rest of the country can't relate to. So S S you know, you guys, you have your problems, Middle Belt people, you know, we, we have our problems, which is why our particular segments of the show, you know, I talk about certain things related to the Middle Belt community. I remember that episode I made about how it's not your village people that are doing you because, you know, in my own part of the world, you know,
they can say something like, you know, uncle this or auntie that or grandfather this or whatever. But because of somebody's bad eye, that's the reason why you're not making progress. And that's something that I dealt with over here. So it's really nice that you're having young men and women doing stuff, you know, addressing business challenges that might be particular to any region. Nigeria. It doesn't mean that we don't care about Nigeria as a whole.
You know, we're just trying to clean our own house first, you know, before we come outside. So that's just the main idea. So Okarike Namdi, web designer, convener of the biggest s s business hangout. Thank you very much for listening to the show. He reached out to me on LinkedIn. Then also shout out to Let Me See. Oh, OK, there's one person I'm going to shout out twice. OK, we're carrying Namdi. What what actually happens that you know, people reach out to me on LinkedIn or WhatsApp while I
see their comments on Spotify. So this is one guy who has reached out to me on both avenues. So OK Namdi apparently he also left a comment on Spotify saying that he was amazed at the sales tips that that are there. So thanks again for the compliments. Then after that, he now reached out to me on LinkedIn. So I didn't realize I was the same fellow. So those are the shout outs of the day. Angeli Mechi Princess, thank you very much for the support.
Okary Namdi, thank you very much for the support. Keep listening. Also share the podcast with people who you think are going to derive value from the sales trips. And then Okary Namdi, I'm giving you my phone number, so reach out on WhatsApp. Let's talk about this s s business hangout thing. I'm curious. I'd like to hear what you guys are up to. All right, so chapter 3, the art of elicitation. Now let's find out what elicitation means in the 1st place.
This is my own definition. Elicitation just means talk freely. You're trying to get somebody to talk freely. Now, in the particular context of espionage, we can get somebody to talk is either elicitation, get them to talk freely, or you beat the crap out of them. Basically, that's torture. So either talk freely or break your head. So those are the two options in this world, in the world of espionage. So of course it is better that you get person to talk freely to elicitate the information, the information.
Because if you elicitate, if you get someone to talk freely, the person is going to be calm, person will be cool. The person should be more honest, the conversation should be more heartfelt versus when you tell the person that look, talk or else I break your head, you know, And then of course, there's also this thing that some people haven't realized. Sometimes when you tell somebody look, talk or break your head, the person will tell you whatever it is that you want to hear.
Also, one reason why torture is not the best way to get information from people. So in that part of the world, to get information, you can either elicitate, toast the person, coax the person, let the person talk freely, let everything be nice, be calm, be heartfelt, or you can say look, talk, or I break your head. The option that we're going to pick is elicitation. Let's try and get people to talk openly, honestly, calmly,
heartfelt, cool, no tension. If we get people to talk like that, then it will lead to good business and it will also lead to good diplomatic relations. Remember, we're talking about how to sell from the world of espionage. So of course, the book starts off from a diplomatic context. Now, let me give you an example. This whole thing of Donald Trump, our guy, our president, he's back. So there have been lots of comments, you know, like I
belong to this group called, what's it called again, UKUK alumni, something I can't remember, but it's an initiative of the UK government so that every single person that has graduated from the United Kingdom, if you have a United Kingdom degree or higher degree, I can't remember from what year. Basically, you guys are members of this association, you know, trust our Niger people now. So we have a Niger water group and it's just a good way for networking.
That's what they tell us. But actually the truth is, if you have an association of people like this networking together and seeming to derive benefits from it, it's also a good marketing opportunity because people on the outside will look at them and say, OK, this is them, this is our UK and see how their life is. And then people to also now start rushing to try and get to UK schools, UK degrees. And I think it's a really brilliant thing that the government of the UK is doing,
you know, how they find ways to continually market themselves not just as a tourist destination, but also as an academic. What's that word? I think it's called transnational education. So as a transnational education destination as well. And they end up making lots and lots and lots and lots of money because I don't know how much it is education is right now. But I think back when I was in uni, I think for my master's, I
can't remember Sharp. I don't think it was up to maybe like 3000 lbs or something like that. I can't remember 1003 thousand. I can't remember anyway. But I'm sure now it's really, really plenty of money because I was talking one of my, it's already my uncle Sharp. But you know how Niger is, everybody's your uncle or your auntie. And I was trying to send his son to Canada and he said he needed like $7000. And I was shocked as, ah, $7000
now things become that expensive. And then, you know, he laughed. He said no, that 7000 is not everything. No, that 7000 is just one year. I said, hey, OK, now anyway, what was that? So I was talking about elicitation now, talking people to talk, getting people to talk in an honest, open and heartfelt manner. And OK, from there I went to Donald Trump. Now the reason why I'm talking about Donald Trump now is because in this my water group that I am now Alumni UK, some people are saying that Donald Trump, he hates Africa, he hates Nigerians, blah, blah, blah, he hates immigrants.
If Donald Trump enters this is this one thing, one thing, one thing, you know, all the things that people say. So let's go back to the example that I've been given. Now, if you have now been elevated to the level of ambassador and your ambassador to America, you're posting this Washington DC, go and give thanks and go and glorify the Lord because you have been exalted. You have been exalted over your people in the same cater who work in NTA or NOA or who work in Ministry of Education because you know, they're still being paid in naira and their crap,
their salary is crap. You are now being paid, you know, on another level, you know, dollars Ester code, you know this and this that and that, housing allowance, travel allowance, driver allowance, all kinds of things. So go and give thanks and pay your tithes because yes, you have been elevated. Definitely you're also better than those people that have been sent to Yugoslavia or Latvia or Afghanistan. So go and give thanks.
Then after you give thanks now and you don't settle down in Washington, DC, you don't have to think, OK, now that I'm here as a diplomat, as ambassador, I'm supposed to be getting some kind information. I need to know what's up, what's up with America, what's up with Donald Trump? What are America's priorities? What are Donald Trump's priorities on the global scale and especially as relates to the African content and to Niger in particular?
I need to know what's up. Now, for those of you who have been here and who listened to us when we talked about Chapter 2 and Chapter 1, we also know that you're going to be doing information gathering, building relationships, all those sorts of things. So as ambassador now, you have to be talking to people one-on-one. And the only way to find out what Donald Trump is really feeling is if you do elicitation. Get people to talk freely, get them to talk calmly, get them to talk openly, honestly,
heartfelt, everything nice and mellow. It is then you'll be able to know whether Donald Trump truly hates Nigerians and he wants all immigrants out. That way you'll be able to advise team war. You'll be able to call Chenabu and say I would Chenabu that is fire on the mountain Trump has entered. And based on my conversations, this is what Trump is saying. Trump is saying this, Trump is saying that Chenabu, we're in trouble.
Prepare. So that's why I'm going to be able to get the truth. Oh, by the way, I saw Donald Trump on the documentary and I thought was really quite interesting. His whole point of view on immigrants anyway, this is the first time I've seen him talk about it. All other times I hear about this whole immigrant thing, there's always them say them say, but I'm just telling you the one that me I saw for myself. So Donald Trump was caught in an interview saying that that they need to have a change to the what's called immigration policy and blah, blah, blah.
And he was saying that people who come into the United States for a degree, you know, whether A2 year degree or a master's program or something like that, should be able to have the benefit of remaining in the country legally. And what he was saying was that people who come through master's degrees and higher education and stuff like that are higher quality immigrants who come with a particular set of skills. And when we chase them away,
they come here, they take the United States education and then run back home. And then the other countries get the benefit of the education. So that's what he was saying. So listening to that clip is beginning to look to me as if it's not as if Donald Trump hits Nigerians is meant to look at me as if Donald Trump prefers high quality immigrants in quote. So people who are coming for master's degree, you know, for this, you know, for stuff like that, let those people remain because they're high quality.
So it looks that Donald Trump and this girl, the head of the Conservative Party, this Nigerian girl can't remember her name anyway, Oh, big UPS. Congratulations to how that she got become the head of the Conservative Party as a Niger chick, as in I'm impressed. You know, keep doing your thing, sister. I understand. Keep doing your thing. So it looks like both of them are on the same page when it comes to these sorts of things.
You know how she she talks about is it chemi something something, you know, she talks about how most of the Nigerian immigrants to the UK go there and just be cleaning and to be wiping Bom Bom and stuff like that. So it looks like Donald Trump and Kemi, I think this can be banquet. I can't remember her name. So those are Donald Trump and Kemi. They're both on the same page. What they want is high quality immigrants, people who are coming in for master's, you know, higher education programs,
you know, stuff like that. Smart people, people who are going to come and gain degrees or whatever, remain within the system and then contribute positively to the development of society. So it looks like this is not the quality of immigrants that they are looking for. I kind of fault their reasoning because it's not everybody who comes to wipe Bom Bom doesn't necessarily mean they're not a good quality immigrant. Because let's face it, people are trying to escape from Niger and there's some people who have lots of skills here who want to leave by all means, who will take any kind of job, even if it's care work and wiping Bom Bom in the hope that from wiping bom Bom they'll be able to trans, not translate.
What's the world trans? I can't remember. Move trans what? Move to an admin job and to a higher paying opportunity. But so where was I? And I was just trying to say that, you know, all these people who are sending messages on what's our group? Donald Trump hates Nigeria, he hates Nigerians, hates immigrants. You know, maybe it's not exactly the case. So where was I? So as a diplomat now, they now send you to Washington, DC.
Your goal is to find out, does Donald Trump hate Nigerians? Does Donald Trump hate immigrants? This is how you're going to find out. You're going to find out what's up by elicitation. You get people to talk freely. You get them to be honest. You get there to be cool. You get them to be calm. It is from there. Talking to people in Washington, DC, talking to, I don't know, legislators, other people in the diplomatic corps, maybe even if you get to meet Donald Trump himself.
And you guys just, you know, you guys break it off, you know, you just chill. Maybe you bring Hennessy and you know, you and Donald Trump are just sipping casual and just talking. Then, you know, elicitate. That's how you get the guy to talk his mind and you know where he's coming from. So you now know whether to call or gotten able to say tenable, we're in trouble. Trump hates Niger or to say or got tunable. All is well, Trump loves Niger.
So elicitation, now, what does all this have to do in the business context? Because thing is, you and me, chances of us meeting Donald Trump are slim. By the way, if you have Tinaboo's phone number and Tinaboo's looking for a new ambassador and they want to change the ambassador to the UK, you know, if Tinaboo is your guy, just give him my phone number, let him call me. You know, I'm educated and I'm young, I'm bright.
I can go to the UK, hook you guys up and make sure that Nigeria's a business interest, cultural interests, you know that our bilateral interests basically are taken care of, you know are capable for the job. So if you know Tin Abou, just give him my phone number. Let's say you can hook me up in this cabinet so I can help Nigeria be great again. So business elicitation now. So we're not diplomats, we don't know Tin Abou, we don't know Donald Trump.
So what does all this talk about elicitation have to do with us? It's very simple. When we are talking to potential customers, potential clients in business, we also have to do some kind of elicitation, which is the reason why I keep telling you, people who like to do proposal, customer will say, are you available? How much? You now say, give me your e-mail address, I'll send you proposal. That's too fast. Calm down. Proposal is the last thing.
Proposal is not the first thing. Stop starting. No, OK, no, that's wrong. Don't start your sales process by issuing proposals. So you have to do some carrying elicitation first. And remember, elicitation is about let the person be cool, let the person be calm, let the person talk freely, let the person be honest, let the person speak his mind from his chest. Let's have a heartfelt conversation. The reason why we're trying to do that is because we need some information.
And until I get that information, I can't give you a quote that is reliable. And I can't even give you a proposal or a quote that might even adequately address your problem. So you need to get the person to be calm. I need to. Elicitate. Get them to talk about the problem that they have. When did this problem start? How is this problem affecting them? Have they tried any solutions before? What are they even trying to achieve in the 1st place?
What time frame do they have in mind? Is this even a problem that is worth fixing? Because sometimes there's some people that have problems, but it's not a problem that is worth fixing. For instance, my car, the window on the passenger side, the thing stopped working. My mom's has been asking me why will you fix it? And I'm like mommy, I beg, I'm not fixing that thing. And she's like, why? I'm like, look, the other windows, they work.
Apart from that, my AC is tight. So I'm not going to fix that window. So yes, I have a problem. The window on the passenger side is not winding down. But as far as I'm concerned, I have better things to spend money on right now. I'm not going to fix that problem. So any time I take the mechanic and my car is like Olga the window, I tell them, look just flashy that thing fix what I told you to fix and let me get out of here because I don't have a problem in my own mind that is worth fixing.
Maybe if my AC stops working OK, I might now go and fix that window so that at least we wind it down. You know, breeze went out of the whole car. But I'm trying to get you guys to understand though, every single time people call you up and they say how far are you available? How much do you deliver to Sokoto? Do you deliver to Maiduguri? Do you deliver to Abuja? Do you deliver to Makudi? Sometimes people have a problem but the problem is not worth fixing.
That is the reason why sometimes people are ghosting you because yes, it's a problem. It's just not worth fixing. Remember that and stop taking all these things personal that somebody ghosted you. It's not always about you. Then even after I figure out if they have a problem that is worth fixing, you also need to try and figure out whether they have a a budget, a range in mind. Because if you're talking to somebody, and this is what I
used to tell wedding photographers and wedding planners back when I still was a trainer in that market, if you're a wedding planner and the average wedding that you plan, the budget is like 7M, OK, no times have changed. I'm sure weddings are much more expensive now because I'm surprised if wedding hall in Abuja now, the hall alone, I'm surprised if all alone has entered like 2-3 M. So if the hall alone is like 3 MI, don't think you can do the wedding for seven M OK, let me just leave it at 7 MI.
Don't know how much it costs to plan weddings these days. So if you're a wedding planner in Abuja or in Lagos and the average wedding that you plan costs seven M, if you are talking to somebody who is a 2.5 M client, it doesn't matter how much grammar you speak. The gap between 2.5 M and seven M is huge. You can't bridge that gap. You need to know from the beginning which kind of person am I talking to? Am I talking to a 2.53 M kind of person?
Am I talking to A7 M person or am I talking to A20M kind of person? Because if you're talking to A20M kind of person, what do you have in mind is 7 M the person might be looking at your housing. This guy, she's sheep. This guy is cheap. They don't know what they're doing. You know, too low class. Not the person for me. So we actually need to have these conversations around budget so you know who it is that you're talking to.
So you will take dressing accordingly. The way or the kind of proposal that you make to the 20 M person is different from the proposal you make to the seven M person, and it's different from the proposal they need that you make to the 2.5 M person. But you need to know who you're dealing with, which is why this is not the only way to deal with price, by the way, but is the reason why in the beginning, I recommend this whole thing of giving A-frame of reference,
giving a budget, this whole thing of saying that all the clients that I typically deal with happens. Clients I typically deal with spend anything between 7,000,000 and, you know, 12.5 on a wedding. How does that sound to you? Yeah. Does that match your budget range? Are we in the same ballpark? Is that the kind of thing that you're looking for? What are your expectations are concerning budget? You know, you just have that sort of kind of concentrate question so that if somebody hears 7.5 to 12 million persons says 7.5, how you now know that?
OK, this thing is, we're probably not going to meet, but if you have someone that says 7.5 to 12, I will tell you the exact budget. But it sounds OK. It sounds just about right, you know that. OK, this one, there's room. It might be realistic here. So in a business context, elicitation, these are the sorts of things you're trying to figure out. What's the problem? What's the vision? How long have you guys been planning?
How's it affecting people? What is the previous solution you've tried before? You know, stuff like that is the problem worth fixing 'cause I've had to tell some wedding planners before. Everybody tells you that, oh, Marty is planning it. I say your auntie, Are you sure? She's. I know. Yeah. My auntie. Now my auntie has like 6 sisters, so they're covered. That kind of babe. As far as she's concerned, she doesn't have a problem.
You can keep trying to toast out, but it's going to be hard 'cause as far as she's concerned, her aunties are Amazons and they're capable. So they don't need a wedding planner. By the way, let me move off of this whole wedding planning example now because not everybody listening to the show right now has a previous background in events like I do. So let me just use, let me see. OK, So the last case study that we did over here on the podcast,
if I remember correctly, before we started talking about diplomats and Washington, DC and Afghanistan was interior decor. Yes, yes, yes, interior decor. The guy in Lagos now we had a strategy session with, I didn't use his real name. I think I called remember calling him Jackie Chan in the episode. So let's use Jackie Chan if this is your first time listening to the show. Sometimes I use people's real names because I have the permission.
If I don't have the permission, I just come up with a name on the fly. No particular reason. So yeah, I just call this guy Jackie Chan. So Jackie Chan is the interior decor space and he's based in Lagos. Then there was one time that he was talking to a prospective customer who is a business owner in Lag. He ended up doing business with the person and the person. The ceiling of his business was ordinary ceiling. And then later on they put linoleum, I think it's called linoleum or something like that.
That's the, you know, ordinary ceiling is how do I describe it now? OK, So for those of us who grew up late 70s, early 80s, back then we didn't have POP in Niger. What we had was regular ceiling. It was kind of like ceramic. So like if you're playing with your football inside the house and you kick it and I think it's the ceiling, the ceiling will just crack. And then you know that, OK, when daddy comes home, you're in trouble because he's going to beat the hell out of you because you destroyed the ceiling.
So that was stage 1 ceramic. We used to have ceramic, very ugly Gray looking kind of thing. Then Step 2 was, I think it's called linoleum. I can't remember. Shaw Boys like plastic and it looks like it has lines on it, but The thing is plastic. So you're playing football inside the house, you know your brothers, and you kick it and the thing hits the ceiling. Thing will just make boom, but the thing won't crack because it's plastic.
So if your father comes home, he won't beat the hell out of you because there's no hole in the ceiling. So this guy started off with ordinary ceiling and then later on they did linoleum and now the guy called up Jackie Chan because he wants to do POP. Do you do POP? How much are you available, blah, blah, blah. Now what Jackie Chan did was a normal thing that yes, we do POP. It is 12,000 naira per square meter. Something, something, something,
any answer? He ended up getting the deal, but this is the better way that you're supposed to do this thing. Now, if you're in this kind of business, you do interrupt the call, somebody calls you do you do POP, how much are you available for? You know, so, so, so how so did the way you handle it is remember we're talking about now we are talking about elicitation. We're trying to get some information. We're trying to get people to talk freely.
We're trying to get people to have an honest, heartfelt conversation about the problem. The reason why is if somebody says, are you available? So, so, so, so I say, look, it's just 12,000 air per square meter. You well, you know, you getting the job just 5050. He will note it down the amount call another person, whoever is cheapest will call with that person. You will not have the honest conversation with that person.
We're trying to get to have a chance to have a conversation with the person first because the distinguishing factor is you as far as the customer is concerned, POP in our POP. Of course, you the profession. I know that some POP is different, but the distinguishing factor is you and you need to get the person to see that your distinguishing factor. So we need to be able to have a conversation with the problem. Now, this guy is a business owner.
So if a business owner wants to change, has tried changing from ordinary ceramic to linoleum, that plastic thing, and now he wants POP because POP is modern or classy or high, you know, high class or sophisticated or whatever. You need to have the conversation now. OK, you've been using the linoleum linoleum for three years. You know, why are you changing now? I mean, how's, how's it, how's it been affecting you or has it been affecting your customers?
He needs to have that conversation now. Why now conversation? He's been working for three years. Why are you changing? So, you know, from there he might start talking about how that this is the kind of business he wants to build. This is what he's trying to project. But this linoleum now the thing looks cheap. Now people are saying that his business is local and he's trying to step up in 2025. So that's the reason why he wants to arrange everything.
Now. You need to have that conversation. You now know the problem that he has the visualities that he's working towards, you know, so he started over ordinary this thing, he moved to linoleum. He now has to do POP. Why we need to know. You also need to have conversations around the time frames. The person is saying that he wants to, you know, step into 2025 with this. You also need to know why, OK, Like why exactly? Like is it that after you do this thing, you're going to do launch party or there's going to be office blessing or something like that?
Is there some event that we're heading towards? We need no time frames so that we know how we arrange ourselves. And then they also give us a sense of whether this person has any sense of urgency. These are the things that help us to close the sale. If somebody has said that this thing must happen by January 2025 and you guys are talking in November, you now know that, OK, this is a serious person. This is one of those deals that you can follow up close.
Mark the guy, you're talking to someone and it sounded like this is a good thing. I would like to do it, but maybe it depends, Maybe I don't know. But this, but that you now know that, OK, there's no urgency behind this thing. Maybe this is not the kind of person that you close. You spend your time just close marking because he's a maybe here, maybe there, maybe this, maybe no. But you're talking to somebody. It's November.
The person is saying January 2025. This thing must be done good candidate to invest time in and to vest money in trying to chase and trying to close this deal. Then you also need to elicitate to try and figure out what kind of POP do you like self, what style? Oh, by the way, I'm not involved in this business so I know absolutely nothing about POP. But I've noticed that there are some designs because like while my father was alive and because my father did sold cement and did a bit of building and stuff like that.
So I've seen POP work done before. So I know that the old school POP was very on it, you know, do lots of designs. You know, you see flowers, you see maybe like waves and things like that. It's just design your your living room then in the middle of the living room to have one kind of intricate design. And then that's where you now put your ceiling fan. So that's how POP used to be. But now with these modern houses, I've noticed that POP is looking different.
You know, you drop some places, you will indent some places, then in the place where you indent them, you now go and hide lights there with different colors. So when you now switch on the lights, bam, some parts of the POP will have a like orange tint, some parts will have a blue tint, some parts will have a green tint as a real fantastic stuff, real fancy the light of the house real nice. So POP game has changed. People are doing all kinds of things nowadays when he's have that conversation with the person.
So the organ when you say POP, you know, like, what are we looking at? That's the part where you bring out your phone or you bring out your book, you bring out your iPad or you bring out your drawings to show him. Oh, OK, Olga, when people started doing POP in the 80s in Nigeria, these were the designs. Is it this kind of thing you're looking at? I'll be is it this modern thing you're looking at that will do it like this will indent this place and OK, your brown colors are red, orange and green.
So we'll now indent the edges with red, with orange and green so that when your customers come in and they see this POP in the ceiling and then they put on the light bap, you see your brown colors, you know, just wow them. So organ, what is it that you have in mind? And you have that conversation. See, all this is elicitation. You're having conversations. You're trying to tease out information. We need to know what it is the person has in mind, what they're trying to work towards.
As we know the information in our head, we're now beginning to arrange ourselves and oh, OK, so it's going to be a modern job. I'm going to need this kind of material, this kind of material, this kind of light bulb, this kind of, this is kind of that you now start calculating everything in your head because eventually we're going to get to the budget conversation. And this is how I recommend it for now. In the beginning, give a range,
don't give an exact figure. So Olga, based on the ideas that we're saying so far with the ideas that we're talking, this job can be anything between like that kind 800K and maybe 1.2 and then you get some feedback. Is that the kind of money that you're willing to invest? Is that within your budget range, Bros, how you see them, You know, however it is that you speak, use your own whatever, but give the range, get some feedback and then hear what it is that the person has to say based on what the person says.
That is how you will now go and make the tailored proposal. If the person says well it's OK, but you go, you give me discount shop, you give me discount shop, but it's OK, you know, OK, no problem. You now can sit down and come up with a Taylor proposal based on some ideas. And maybe the proposal come up to is, I don't know, 995K. But to be on the safe side, since he's saying you will price, you will price just making one M so that by the time he prices down, maybe you guys end up at 900 K or something like that.
You don't lose too much. So he's after that you're not going to be able to give a tailored specific proposal. And that is the stage where you have drawn up one particular idea that you're going to do Nokia, we're going to do ceramic. It's going to be a new design. We're going to cover X number of square meters. We'll do indent here, we'll do indent there, and we'll have three accent Bob here, 4 accent Bob here, and blah, blah, blah.
They now give the guide proposal. Then the next step is after I give the proposal, you now try to close. Closing just means get the person to take the next step. For people in this sort of industry and also people who are in events, the technique that I, or the tactic I like to recommend is basically just breakdown what the next steps need to be and then ask the person if they're good to go. So in this case you say, OK,
Olga, you say we have to enter 2025 on a high note for that to happen. This work, we must finish this work by December 23rd. If we're going to finish this work by December 23rd, we have to work for two weeks. So that means this work, we have to start this work December 9th, December 9th. Now if we're going to start this work December 9th, I need one week to be able to buy all these materials because this POP, this indent, these glasses, this, I
have to buy it from Lagos, I have to send it from Unisha. So I need one week. So where that means that actually I need to place order for the materials by December 2nd. And Olga, you know today's data, this is already November 3rd. So the money must enter my account at least one week before now at least that kind 25th November, the money must be in my account so I can place the order. If we missed this November 25 orga, I can't guarantee that we'll step into this 2025 on a high note.
I can't guarantee it. So this money gas being in my account by N25 and then you ask is that something you can do? Can you raise 400K deposit by then or got the ball is in your cartoon. So it's up to you, Bros. Now you send the bar. Oh, by the way, somebody has used that one on me before. I made the podcast episode only because I thought it was really, really cool. This is just to show you guys that going for the clothes, it doesn't have to be all formal and stuffy and everything.
Even something as simple as air Bros. When you go send the bar, that's enough to get the ball rolling. So yeah. So in this case, you can see how you ask for the commitment because this is something that has a fixed deadline. In this case, wedding people, event people you know already has a fixed deadline. So if you just walk all the way backwards and say, Olga, this is all Madam. This is what is involved. So when are you comfortable for us to start?
Or can you raise the 400 K deposit by then or blah, blah, blah. That's a nice way to get things going. And then you can now put the thing in your follow up queue so that you'll be following up the person or follow through, as I like to say, call the person to know how far and you know, stuff like that. Just keep things online, keep things going. But bottom line, the reason why we worry about elicitation, and I hope you guys are paying attention, especially those of you who like to start with proposal, somebody will say, are you available?
Are you free? How much you say, well, let me send you a proposal. What's your WhatsApp number? Elicitation is what helps close deals, getting people to talk freely, smoothly, calmly, their full chest, everybody nice and cool. That is what closes deals. If somebody calls you and says are you available and say OK, let me send you a price list or let me send you a proposal. The possibility of closing the deal is 50505050 is not bad, but let us try and increase the odds in our favour.
Elicitation really, really important. This is your first time listening to the show. You might have to go back and listen to the show over again just to get the spirit of what it is. I'm saying is by having open, honest friend conversations with people, elicitation information. That is where we get all the information that we need to be able to close the deal. And that's how we're going to be able to progress thing one step at a time.
And in case you haven't figured out all these things that I've been saying, why do you want the this thing? Why do you want it now? Has been affecting your customers, blah, blah, blah blah. In case I haven't noticed, this is not the kind of conversation that you have in just one sitting. So those of you who are trying to close the deal on the spot, somebody contact you today or trying to close it today. You know, calm down, illustrate some things, have a couple of conversations, try and move things from one step to another step to another step.
Give yourself time to close the deal. If it's a very, very simple something like you sell, I buy more and that's different. You close the deal in one spot. The businesses want to buy. I buy more. OK, how much? I buy more. Do you want to buy? And then you give the person. But if the person wants a distillery, for instance, and they need Abalomo to as part of the raw material in their distillery, that's a different conversation.
It's a complex deal. You need to ask the person, OK, how many tons of Abalomo do you need? What exactly are you produce producing? How does Abalomo feature into the distillation process? What grade of Abalomo do you need? At what stage of harvesting do you need the Abalomo? You know, things like that need to ask and in case you think I'm making stuff up, I'm not making stuff up. So one of my wife's clients brought her a hamper and inside was something called dollar is actually the spirit, the spirit.
When I say spirit, I mean strong drink, 40% alcohol. You believe the raw material is like Baltimore and this thing is fantastic. Like I'm impressed. I'm impressed. I did not know that you can take a Baltimore and fermented Baltimore and use it to make strong drink and the thing tastes smooth, real nice, very, very nice. I was taking it straight, but my wife said no, that we can't be taking this in straight, that we should dilute it.
So I bought Sprite and last night we finished like half a bottle. Very good stuff. Very, very good stuff. So for those of you who like your alcohol, there's a new brand in the market or The thing is called Dala DALA and it is fermented at Balumo and nothing is awesome. Give it a try. 40% alcohol. So if your husband is lightweight or your wife is lightweight, you know, don't give them or dilute it. But if you come from a family that drinks, you know like me,
go and buy a bottle, call mumsy and popsy. Buy 2 bottles. In fact, if you come from a drinking family, two or three bottles, call mumsy and popsy. You sit down and then break bread and have yourself some nice fermented. So when I say like Barnum more is used in production processes. I'm not lying though Nigerians were going places were inventing things as in I'm impressed. I'm impressed. Nigeria the only way to go is up.
There are people who don't want us to succeed or God punish them who succeed. Where was I? So bottom line, what I'm just trying to say is elicitation helps to close deals. So learn how to do elicitation. Now, if you read the book, the person Jeremy Hirowitz, the way he talks about listen tation is this that you have to engage in active listening because all these conversations that we're going to be having, you have to do active listening.
If you want to know what active listening is just, and this is your first time listening to the podcast episode, just scroll back like one week and listen to all the episodes. I've already done an episode on active listening, especially as it relates to themes in this guy's book. He also says that conversations have to be open-ended. I've already done a podcast episode on how conversations should be open-ended just within the last week.
So this is your first time just, you know, scroll back, skip back, you listen to that episode. Then he also said that we also need to engage in rapport building to do elicitation. And then of course, we have to do rapport building because how is somebody going to talk free about their business, about their problems if you guys won't establish rapport now? I think the rapport building episode was the very last episode before this one.
So this your first time listening to the podcast. Skip back and listen to that episode and you know what it is that we're talking about. Now he also says we should do something. No, but I'm going to give you guys a strong warning here because this thing can backfire. He said we should do mirroring. Now, mirror as in mirror, you know when you're looking at your face. So mirroring. The reason why this thing can backfire is because when most people nowadays say mirroring,
what they mean is copycat. If the person is using slang, copy the slang. If the person is standing up, stand. If the person is sitting down, sit. If the person leans to the left, usually you lean to the left, the person leads to the right, you lean to the right. If the person laughs like this, ha ha, ha, ha, ha, you laugh like that, ha ha, ha, ha, ha. That can cause problems because if you're trying to mirror and what you're ending up doing is copycatting, it ends up feeling weird and the thing freaks people out, freaks people out.
You're trying to build rapport, but if you're copycatting, you will freak the other person out. And I said, now what's wrong with this guy? Is he mad or he's just in genuine or or what? So when you hear mirroring, if you're going to do copycatting, please don't do that or the thing will backfire. However, the idea or the concern behind mirroring is this now we're all different. So we need to match people, match their pace, match their demeanor, match their speed,
match their cadence, match their body language. If that's what you're trying to do, no problem. So if the person laughs, ho ho ho, ho, ho ho, in my opinion, this is not the time to laugh ho ho ho, ho ho. If the way you laugh is Kiki, Kiki, Kiki, then no problem. The person has cracked a joke and the person is laughing. You might laugh, but you can laugh your own way. The most important thing is that you know there's humor now and you're trying to match the mood of what is going on.
So the person can be laughing ho, ho, ho, ho ho and you can be laughing Kiki, Kiki Kiki. I don't laugh in public. I don't know why I just, you know, smile and hold my sides. So if you're that kind of person to who you don't even you don't have an outside laugh, then well, I have an outside laugh, but that's from my wife and my kids. So if you don't have an outside laugh, then, you know, do your thing, you know, smile and hold your sides and walk back and forth, you know, But The thing is we're trying to match the demeanor, the pace, the cadence,
what is that is going on? But we don't have to mirror the person. So it's not a matter of the person is standing, I must stand, the person is sitting, I must sit, the person needs to the left, Let me lean to the left. If the person appears casual and relaxed, then you might be casual and relaxed in your own way. So if the guy's way of being casual and relaxed is they are unbutting their shirt and then they lean back. If in your life you will never ever unbutting your shirt,
there's no need to unbutting your shirt. So if for you appearing casual is, I don't know, maybe you put your barrel down and you lean to the left, then yeah, do that. But you don't have to unbot in your shirt and lean back because the person unbot in the shirt and lean back. So please, those of you who talk about mirroring, who are doing mirroring, please or be careful, if you're doing copycat, the thing will backfire.
In fact, there's some people who start playing games with you. They'll just start doing stuff to see how much it is that you're going to mirror. Because when you start copycatting, some people notice what is that is going on. So the author, Jeremy here, which also says we should do mirroring as a way of elicitation. But mirroring, I put it at the bottom of the list because you need to do it with caution. Don't become a copycat.
The thing will backfire. So that's it. This is OK over 14 minutes. Let me just bring it to a close. So if this is your first of all, listen to the episode to the podcast. Please don't run away. Most of my podcast episodes are usually 30 minutes. So don't worry, it's not every episode that is going to last this long, you know, like 15 minutes, then let's see. OK, so if this is your first time listening to the show, we've said a lot.
Listen to this episode again and then skip back one week. Listen to the whole series because I did an intro to the book. I did Chapter 1, I did Chapter 2, and then today's episode is Chapter 3. Tomorrow we're going to move on to Chapter 4. So that's all for today pretty much. Thank you very much for your time and attention. The phone number to reach out to me on is 08064662140. Again, the country code is +234. For those of you who are not Nigerian, that's my WhatsApp number.
Reach out to me. Please don't send me any links. I don't know you yet. Let's flow first elicitation. Let us flow back and forth, get to know each other. Then you can start sending me links and whatever it is that you think we need to have a look at, you know, well, let's do some elicitation first. Hope you guys are seeing now how it works. So yeah, that's it. And then reach out to me on LinkedIn the name to look for establish my IED.
I'm on LinkedIn, you can confirm the spelling of my name from YouTube or the link where you're listening to the show. So thanks for your time and attention. I'll catch you guys at the next recording. So Saturday as at this time of recording. So hope you guys have a wonderful Sunday tomorrow and yeah, I'll catch you guys then.