The Art of Persuasion: Lessons from Espionage & Sales Mastery

Hello, and welcome to the show. Today is going to be a noisy episode, so let's just get straight down to business. I had promised you guys that we're going to do a book review this year, in 2025, and the first book that I had lined up was buying, or rather is by Jeremy Hurowitz. Hope I'm pronouncing the name correctly. I think the book was published in August of 2024. Yeah, August 27th, 2024. And the title of the book is Sell Like a Spy, the Art of Persuasion from the World of Espionage.

So it's something that one of my juniors in school has been talking about. Right now. He's a lawyer in Lagos who handles divorce and you know, those sorts of proceedings. And he likes to read lots of books. And so he put it up and I thought it would be an interesting read for those of us who are interested in all things sales and marketing related, trying to see what we can learn from spies and people who are in the world of international relations, diplomacy, you know,

those sorts of things. What we can learn about convincing and selling. Especially since last year. If you've been listening to the podcast, you remember when I had to handle some interviews for a client of mine, The client of mine, they were in the real estate space and they have an app that is supposed to make it easier for people to find houses, you know, pay for houses, put them in extra, do inspections so you don't have to inspect the house by yourself.

And I was interviewing someone who was going to be a, how do they call it again, the term that they use that was virtual inspection agent, I think. But my, while I was interviewing the candidate and during the training, I have been telling the people that, look, yes, it's a fancy title, but more or less what you're going to be doing is sales because you're going to be talking to people, you're going to be helping them find the perfect house and you're going to be helping them do that using the app of, you know, using the app and the proprietary algorithm that you guys have.

So even though it's a fancy title, virtual inspection agent, I've been telling them, look, this is just essentially a sales role. So one of the candidates that I interviewed for the job, if you remember correctly, is she studied international relations and diplomacy back when she was in her uni days. And that was, excuse me. So that was when I so was during that podcast episode, yes, when I was talking about the experience of interviewing her that I started making parallels between the world of international relations,

diplomacy, espionage and stuff like that. So when I saw this book come up on my friends timeline, I just thought OK cool. So let's just go ahead with that. Anyway, long and short, I promise you guys a book review. The honest truth is this is not a book review. Rather, what I'm going to do is we're going to explore themes from a sales perspective, you know, see what the similarities are. Because to do a book review, I'm actually going to have to sit down and read the book.

But to be honest, right now, my life is just up and down. You know, the radio show is almost in production now. I'm in the middle of moving house. And then also have some outstanding, what will I say, some things outstanding with clients. So for me to sit down and read the book right now and then we're going to go through a chapter, chapter page by page, that's unrealistic. So right now we're just going to skim and go through some of the themes that are addressed in the book.

And then I will show you how from a traditional sales and business development perspective and from the sorts of things we discussed over here on the podcast, you know, what is the overlap? Sorry about that. So yeah, the book sound like a spy, the art of persuasion from the world of espionage. Now, the main thesis of the book, the main idea of the book is that the techniques that are used by intelligence operatives, the techniques that are used by,

you know, diplomats, the techniques that are used by the James Bond, the techniques that are used by the was like a Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible. And pick your favorite spy movie, whether fictional spy, real life spy, you know, whatever. OK, that woman was her name. Was it Mata Mata Hari also, I think I was in primary school back then and there was this buzz about this book. I think it was an auto not an autobiography, a story about some famous and female spy.

I can't remember which of the world was I think Mata Hari also. So if you've read the book, think of Mata Hari, think of Tom Cruise and Mission Impossible, think of James Bond, think of, you know, whichever spy that you like. So the main idea behind this book is that intelligence operatives, whether end up in the, you know, in sexy spy scenarios or whether there are diplomats out in the field, they have to do certain things that also apply to sales and kind of relations.

In other words, there are things that diplomats have to do. There are things that spies have to do that also the same thing that sales people have to do. And with that, I wholeheartedly agree. And three of the things that Jeremy Horowitz talks about in his book that we all share in common. So me and Tom Cruise and James Bond. So there's some things we have in common. We have to do information gathering. Now, James Bond's way of information gathering is much more exciting because he always ends up with, he always ends up with a beautiful woman.

OK, well, I have a beautiful woman as a wife, but The thing is I only have one and James Bond has multiple. So in that case, you can say that his own case is different. His, you know, he has more perks. But bottom line is the same thing that James Bond does, I have to do and you have to do as well, which is information gathering. Now the second thing is understanding human behaviour. So James Bond, Tom Cruise, Mission Impossible, Mata Hari,

you know, whoever, we also need to understand human behaviour. We need to understand who it is that we're talking to right now, people that we're going to come in contact with in the future. Because selling, spying, diplomatic relations is all about understanding different people's motivations, what makes them take, how can you bring them over to our side? How can we be on the same side as theirs to move an agenda forward?

You know, all these horse trading back and forth. And then the third thing that Jeremy here, which talks about is building rapport. I don't even have to stretch that one because if you've been listening to this podcast for any length of time, you've heard me talk about building rapport, building rapport, building rapport. So that is Jeremy Hurwitz main thesis, not spies, James Bond. Who else? I don't know, I'm only thinking of two spies right now, James Bond and Mission Impossible, but there are lots of other movies anyway.

So they all have to do information gathering, they all have to understand human behaviour and they all have to build rapport. And it's the same thing, I have to do information gathering, I have to understand human behaviour, I have to build rapport. Absolutely essential in my role as a business consultant. And you have to do information gathering no matter what your business is, you have to understand human behaviour no matter what your business is.

And you have to build rapport no matter what your business is. So those are the, that is the main thesis of the book essentially. Now information gathering, how do you do that? We will get into that in detail. I think chapter one of the book is the art of the approach, the art of the approach. Understand your audience and tailor your approach accordingly. So we'll get into some of that with when we get to Chapter 1, but for now, let me just give an overview of how all this relates from a traditional sales and business development perspective.

So information gathering in traditional sales, how do we do this? If you listen to the previous episode, or rather the last two episodes, then you're ready. You already know what we're talking about essentially. So information gathering or investigation or whatever it is that you want to call it because people call it different things, but it's all the same. Information gathering is done by qualification and discovery.

If you listen to the last two episodes, you already understand if this is your first time listening to the podcast. After you're done listening to this episode, just hit rewind. Listen to sorry, hit skip because you can't rewind the podcast. So hit skip, skip one, skip 2, and then listen to the last two episodes. Essentially, qualification and discovery. What that means is we're having conversations with people because we're trying to figure out what is their problem or what is their vision, what is their motivation is the same thing if you're a diplomat.

So if you're a member of the civil service and they put you as diplomatic attache to America or whatever, the moment you land Washington DC, your assignment is OK, OK, I don't have direct access to Trump, but for the attache, I'll be for the diplomat or for the, you know, whatever, whatever, all the people that have to interact with. Well, first of all, you have to understand what the diplomatic thrust of America is as a whole.

But then individually, the people that you're going to meet, the diplomats you're going to meet, the people that you're going to meet in that world, each of them is going to have, you know, the thing that is choking them, what their own problem is, what their own visions are, what their own motivation is. I mean, if nothing else, the people that you're going to meet are going to be worried about, you know, advancing up the career and doing a good job and things like that.

So if you meet them in the diplomatic service, you understand what it is, that they are priorities, what they're trying to achieve, and you help them to achieve those sorts of things. Of course, you scratch my back, I scratch yours, I help you out, you help me out. You know, that's just how these things work. So it's also the same thing in business, in sales, qualification and discovery. We're trying to figure out what is this person's problem or what's this person trying to do?

What motivates this person? The reason why we're doing that is because we're trying to get alignment between the other person and you. So let me stop you from being theoretical. Let me see, OK, last episode, I think I spoke about a fashion designer who somebody has to make peplum for a wedding dress. So let me use that. So if you're a wedding designer, of course for you, your motivation is that you want to collect big money.

Then your motivation is also that you also want to show off your work and you want to show off your creative flair, because I know that it doesn't give wedding designers any joy. You know, when you design things and you know nobody wears it or nobody sees it or people see it and then they don't like it. So those are our motivations. Now, the client on the other hand, the lady who has come to meet you, her motivation is this.

Her sister is getting married. OK, she's still single or whatever, but anyway, she wants to slay. She wants to look fab. She wants to look fabulous when the professional wedding for photographs comes out. She wants to look, you know, Ganga, you know, yeah, it's her sister's wedding, but you know, she, she can't carry last as well. So if you're able to figure out what her motivations are as the customer, what your own motivations are as the artist or as the designer, and you're able to create alignment, then you're not going to be able to have a profitable business relationship.

The sister of the bride will go away happy because she will have a peplum dress that will kill it. And you will go away happy because when you hear ping him and you look at your account balance, you'll be able to pay your tithes and you'll be able to do Internet. You'll be able to eat your armor and you'll be able to, I don't know, do whatever it is that you want to do. So information gathering, you see how it is important in the world of espionage and how it is important in the world of business qualification and discovery.

Who is this person? What's the problem? What are they trying to achieve? What are their motivations? Oh, OK, this is this person. OK, no problem. Me. This is what I want to get out of the deal. Oh, yeah. There's an alignment from their profitable relationship for both parties. So how we do information gathering is through conversations essentially that's it. The other forms of doing information gathering and in the book by Jeremy Horowitz, he's going to talk about other forms of information gathering which we should also be doing as business people.

But from a sales perspective. You know, the first thing or the easiest thing or the most primary thing we'll do is through conversations as per you are talking with the person or you are pinging with the person in order of preference. Our preferred talking. You can see the person face to face or phone call, you know year to year. Then after that, you know, pinging, typing and all the others. Well, primarily we're going to do that through having conversations and by asking questions.

The questions should be focused on the other party and the question should be open-ended to get them talking. If this is your first time listening to the show, so excuse me, if this is your first time listening to the show, then OK, hop on YouTube or you can check Spotify because Spotify also allows you to search within the podcast. So within the podcast, if you just put the keywords open-ended conversation, let me see what else you just put open-ended.

Yes, if you're on Spotify, you're listening to the podcast right now. Just go to the search function. It's going to say search within the podcast. Just put open-ended in there and then see what comes up or put conversation in there. And you see all the episodes that I've made about that. And he'll tell you guys how to have open-ended other focused conversations. If you go there and he's mono like you're talking about sorry,

monologue. Yeah, monologue. You're talking about me, me, me. I'm the greatest, I'm the best, I'm the finest. I'm the smartest. I'm the this, I'm the that. That's a very, very, very, very boring conversation. And it's not going to get you far in business and it's definitely not going to get you far in the world of diplomacy and international espionage. You're going to be a very bad spy if everywhere you go, you're talking me, me, me, me, me, me,

me. In fact, in the world of James Bond and in the world of Tom Cruise, Mission Impossible. If you talk about me, me, me all the time, it'll just get you killed because everybody, you know who you are, how they can find you, you're a loudmouth, you're lousy, you're useless, they'll just mond you and that's the end of the film. Then understanding human behaviour, there's a chapter on, let me see, I think chapter 3 in Jeremy Hurwitz book That's the Art of Elicitation.

I think he talks more about understanding human behaviour, but from a traditional self perspective, the reason why we're trying to understand human behaviour is because if we understand people's behaviour profiles in general, if we understand people's preferences in general, and if we understand customer trends, it will help us when we're talking to a particular somebody. So that's the reason why I'm having some conversation with some people.

And I know that OK, this guy, I do not want to do business with this guy because I understand human behaviour that I've dealt with particular kinds of customers, in particular kinds of context. And when they say this and they say this, I now know that OK, this guy is a 419, it is time to withdraw. Or this person is an honest business person, but this is a quarrel. Some individual it is time to withdraw. You're not going to give me headache or top small money.

So this is the reason why we need to understand human behaviour. It helps us to understand our customers better. If we know them, we know those people to run away from. We know those people to work with and the people we choose to work with, we're going to know what it is that they enjoy. So from a let me see, let me see, let me see, let me see. OK, wow, I can't think of any example right now, but bottom line is yes, you will know what it is that your customers like because OK, let me just look at cars, for instance, cars,

there's some people that are technical minded. So for the technical minded person, if you know those kind of consumers, those kind of customers when you're talking to them about the car, hey, yes, my G8, not G8 car, sorry, GS 8 that I like by GAC, Xiaomi, the Chinese manufacturer, their showroom is in is in Gherki. Just Google it For those of you in Abuja, you go and see some correct cars that real nice. So if you're the technical person, Oh, sorry, some notification came in, I just had to mute it.

So if you're the technical person and you're trying to sell that car, that's how you now start. Excuse me, you now start talking about all The thing is V8 engine something, something, something horsepower, whatever, whatever, kilometers and blah, blah blah. Sorry about that. This summer time is really killing me here. So if you're with a technical person, you now know they're trying to stress all those technical things.

But then if you're with someone who is much more not technical, but much more functional minded or something, you know, you'll be able to say, of course, you have some also called some rapport with the person you know, have some nice conversations and you'll be able to talk more in terms of benefits like look, OK, this tank, this fuel tank is massive. If you feel this thing once you will drive from here to Zarya and back, you will do it 10

times. You see, that's a different thing from talking technical specs like, you know, 60, you know, 60 litre gallon engine something, something, something, you know, for someone who is much more experience experiential and you're talking in terms of benefits. You just say, look, Olga, you know, the next time you have to travel home, if you feel this tank from here to Zarya, you drive down back five times you say, wow, five times you say,

yes, Olga, no, you know, and you know all and on. So it's by understanding human behavior that we're going to be able to tailor our communication, tailor our approach, tailor our conversations to the particular individual that we're talking to. And we know that because we understand in general behaviour profiles, people's preferences and some customer trends. Now, how do we understand human behaviour? Sorry, how do we understand human behaviour?

Yeah, so like I spoke about, when we're talking about qualification, it's the same thing, qualification and discovery. That's how we understand human behaviour. We also understand human behaviour by doing active listening. Active listening is not just when you sit down and then you shake your head, but you actually have to engage. Oh really? Can you tell me more? You know, stuff like that. In fact, women do this very,

very, very well as. And when babes are talking together, just watch them, you know, because guys can be talking and the main person is telling the story. Everybody just keeps quiet and listening and maybe they laugh. But women are different, you know, Women are talking, saying no, you don't mean it. He what? He's a bastard is a lie. You know, that is essentially what active listening is. You are asking questions, you are engaging, you are eliciting feedback, you are prompting, you know, so it doesn't even have to be articulate like this, like what I just said is a lie or you don't mean it.

So even you don't mean it is good active listening because if somebody says something, I say you don't mean it. It's an invitation for the person to talk some more and venture some more details. So that essentially is what active listening is. It doesn't mean just listening with your ears, but you're going to elicit feedback, you're going to be asking questions, you're going to be probing, and you're going to be looking for, what will I say, looking for particular.

Storylines in the conversation that you have to probe through. So we have to do that in business to try and figure out what's going on with our customers. And if you're in the international world of espionage, you have to do that as well. So that if Donald Trump doesn't like Nigeria and his plan is to blow us all to bits, you know, you have to be able to figure that out early so that you can't want anyone. And if there's anything we can do, we can defend ourselves.

So essentially, that's how it works. Then let's see, what did he say again? Yeah, so he said three things that we need to do. Information gathering, understanding human behaviour, and then building rapport. Now, building rapport, for those of you who've been listening to the podcast for more than a year, you will know about building rapport. Newbies, you won't know. So building rapport, the easiest framework that I like to use for building rapport is something out of Tom Hopkins, who's an American sales trainer in the real estate space.

Please, those of you who are new, don't say real estate, but what I do is fashion. There's no connection. There is a connection because sales and business principles are universal, but the application depends according to the context. So whatever principle I say here will apply to your fashion business and will also apply to your cement making business. It will also apply to your catering business. You just have to find out how.

So building rapport achieved through three things, credibility, commonality, competence. Tom Hopkins calls that the three CS, credibility, commonality and competence. Credibility just means I look the part. I sound believable. That's what credibility means. So you want to be build rapport. You have to be able to look or sound believable. You are not going to achieve rapport. OK, let me put it this way. Sometimes I'm going out and then my wife will say, why are you dressed like that?

And I'm like, it's just a casual informal thing. And my wife will say, look, you are a consultant. When you show up, show up like a consultant, you're going out now looking like a wife beater. If you go out like this, who will take you seriously? No, no, seriously. My wife says things like that. So that is the thing. If someone is going to have a meeting with a caterer or a meeting with a business consultant or a meeting with AI,

don't know with a diplomat. If you do not look like a diplomat, if you do not sound like a diplomat, if you do not look and sound like a consultant, if you not look and sound like a caterer, you are not going to start building rapport because the person would be like something is off. This guy says he's a business consultant, but the guy showed up. Now he looks like a bricklayer. You can see that rapport is beginning to break down because the guy or the girl was expecting to see one thing, but the person that showed up is looking like another thing.

So credibility, make sure you look the part, make sure you sound the part. For people like doctors and architects, they always like to have the testimonials or third party validation. That's why if you go to the doctor's office as you're sitting down, if it's his own private practice, look to the left, look to the right. You will see there that OK, he graduated OAU first class. If you look the other way, you will see that from OAU he went to Birmingham and did his orthodontic something, something and he finished first class.

Then if you look again, maybe on his desk, you see an award or something that he received for professional education in something, something, something. But I mean, so doctors do this in very well. If you visit a Doctor Who has his own private practice, just just check it. As you're sitting in the lobby, look around, you'll be seeing the certificates. When you enter into the office, look around, you'll be seeing the certificates.

That is part of the building, the rapport. He's looking the part or she is sounding the part. They have their testimonials up there. So to build rapport, make sure you show up credible. If the person is expecting to see a fashion designer where it look like a bricklayer, there's a problem. They're not building rapport. Next is commonality. Commonality just means I'm like you and we can show that. Well, the whole thing about I'm like you is because people have to do business to people that they like.

OK, well, people say no like and trust. No like and trust, but there has to be that likeability factor there. In fact, I told you that there's some clients. No, no more. I see them, I hear them and I'm like, God forbid you're not going to mess up my day. And I just look for ways to weave the conversation because I don't like this person. In fact, sometimes it's easy because I don't like you. You don't like me. So back in my wedding photography days, there was one wedding planner that was like that.

Every time we tried to work here, the whole thing was off. So after a while, it was just convenient. I don't like you, you don't like me, and it was cool. So commonality just means I'm like you. So in the conversation, you stress a common history or you stress common likes. You stress common interests, show your opening to listening. Just stress that you have things in common. In fact, those of us who finish from OAU, you know, it's something that we do a lot like that.

I owe you a more affair, blah, blah, blah. Greatest affair. Great. Oh, before you know it, we feel like we're friends. Why? Because we finished from the greatest school on the African continent. No apologies to you. You know, like people, by the way, and the University of Ebado and the rest of you state schools. People are not even anything. We don't even read you. So that is one way that people show commonality from the things you have in common for those of you who are dating or who are just newly married, you know, in the early courtship phase,

commonality, that's what happens a lot like, Oh my God, you like this? Is this on Netflix? I just love the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you guys know, excuse me. And then you guys now Netflix and chill, that is commonality. You like this. Oh, I don't believe this. I like this too. We must be soul mates. So it's the same thing in business as well. Commonality. I'm just like you. So as you're having the conversations, the qualification and discovery conversations, you should be stressing common areas.

Do you guys go to school together? Are you guys the same tribe? Do you both like Ungwabi? Let's see what else. I don't know. I can't think of anything right now but just stress areas of common history. Common likes, common interest. Now competence just means I can do what needs to be done. No need to stress this because it sounds a whole lot like credibility. But the bottom line is if you want to build rapport, show up and look credible, make the person feel like you and me, we they relate, we are the same, we are vibing.

And then you also want the person to leave that conversation or feeling like this guy, this girl, they are legit, they can do the job. Now if you use the simple framework, this is one easy way to start building rapport. Like I say, this is not the only framework for building rapport that exists and just talk about it a lot because it is easy to remember. It is 3 CS, credibility, commonality, competence. It's easy to remember.

And like I keep saying on the podcast, easy to remember means easy to apply because I'm all about application. There's no point in learning something fancy that when the time comes you'll be thinking what's nothing, what's nothing, what's nothing. No, simple, easy to remember, easy to do. So, yeah, let me just wrap it up here. We can start going into chapters next. We'll look in chapter one. That is the art of the approach,

how to understand your audience and tailor your approach accordingly. But in summary, this is an introduction to the book. What Jeremy Hurwitz is saying is that if you are an intelligence operative, if you're a James Bond or a diplomat, you have to do information gathering. You have to understand human behavior. You have to build rapport. And he's now telling us, those of us in the business community that you, Ma, you guys and girls, you will need to do the same things as well.

So for your business, you're listening to the broadcast right now firmly resolve that you're going to get good at information gathering, you're going to get good at understanding human behaviour, and you're going to get good at building rapport. And you see the difference that it makes in your business. But a caveat, there is nothing that you're going to do when it comes to sales that is automatic and that works overnight.

So please don't want to tell anybody that. I said if you do information gathering, you understand human behaviour and you build rapport, you will double your business in one week. It doesn't work that way. It takes time to gather the skills and the know how to do information gathering, to have good conversations so you can understand human behaviour and to build rapport. So it's about applying things daily in our business communications, in our WhatsApp communications, when we're meeting people, you know, it's just small, small habits that we apply every single day.

And as we get better cumulatively over time, we will now see the benefits. So let me bring that to a close because we're already at 30 minutes. Thank you very much for your time and attention. If you'd love to connect with me, the phone number is 08064662140. The country code is +234. For those of you who are not Nigerian, then connect with me on socials, I'm on LinkedIn name establishment, IED. Please ignore other social media handles, I have none.

I have started deleting them so by the end of January they would all be gone. And if at the time of listening to this podcast, you see any other social media handle that purports to have my name, it is not me telling you guys. Now, they already tried to hack me a couple of times. And I'm shocked because, I mean, who am I? I'm not a big boy. I have one hammered while you're trying to hack my handles. I have no idea. So you find me on LinkedIn, the name to look for, establishing my idea.

So thanks for your time and attention. I'll catch you guys at the next episode. And yeah, that's it. Bye.